Beaten to death with a brick for opposing arranged marriage

[Father Heathen]

Honor killings, corrective rape, what the @#$% is wrong with people in this world? Some people seem to me to be less than animals, less than dirt...

I concur.

 

[Meow Mix]

I'm afraid you will be surprised that even the most civilized and cultured societies have done and are doing much more terrible things. these people work on codes you simply cannot understand, so there is no point in going out of your way about it.

My girlfriend was talking about some atrocities our soldiers have committed to innocent people in Iraq/Afghanistan and was expressing disbelief at how it could happen...

I said something to the effect of "Well yeah, you take 18 year old boys and give them guns and tell them to KILL KILL KILL and then put people's lives in their hands without much in the way of consequences and what do you think is going to happen?"

That made me think after that about the scariness inherent in human nature. People without access to quality education who live in poverty don't have much excuse when they start doing idiotic, evil stuff like honor killings, corrective rape etc.... but I think a lot of humans, were authority and protection like civilization and law offers stripped away, would make life miserable for the rest of us.

I think this just shows how truly important it is to emphasize offering education and a higher quality of life to people globally in any way possible... people who understand more things tend to behave not because some authority figure will bring down consequences on them but because they want to.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Honor killings, corrective rape, what the @#$% is wrong with people in this world? Some people seem to me to be less than animals, less than dirt...

True ... However this is the world we live in.

It will not improve by turning a blind eye to more primitive cultures.

The west is as bad as the rest of the world. It not only does nothing about cultures that bring these things in to western countries. But also exports death opression and rape where ever it goes in the spread of democracy.

There are far more family gun deaths in the USA, than Honour Killings in Europe.

 

[Meow Mix]

True ... However this is the world we live in.

It will not improve by turning a blind eye to more primitive cultures.

The west is as bad as the rest of the world. It not only does nothing about cultures that bring these things in to western countries. But also exports death opression and rape where ever it goes in the spread of democracy.

There are far more family gun deaths in the USA, than Honour Killings in Europe.

Oh I agree, I'm in no way saying that Western culture isn't rife with absolutely disgusting stuff.

America doesn't really recognize honor killings as a special type of homicide for instance: how do you prepare officers and the public to identify warning signs if it isn't legally recognized and taught to watch for?

America's full of gun-toting idiots, ridiculous numbers of debased criminal scum, half the population is scientifically illiterate (and I'd bet half of that population is also illiterate in general), we just leave people to die agonizing deaths if they can't afford health care to receive what probably took a pharmaceutical company $5 to manufacture that could save their lives...

I could go on and on. Humans are animalistic, disgusting, selfish, nasty creatures sometimes. It's only the good people, of which there are thankfully many, that keep me from becoming totally misanthropic.

EDIT: Also I know America isn't the entirety of "Western culture," it's just the part of Western culture I'm familiar with.

EDIT 2: Also regarding "spreading democracy," I think that's absolute rubbish. We aren't even a democracy, we're a democratic republic... and what business do we have barging into people's countries in the name of spreading our government type?

I think everyone in the world would be better off under a free and secular government that follows along the lines of a democratic republic, but that sort of government is BY the people FOR the people, not BY (America forcing you to have it) FOR (America's best interests)!

 

[Caladan]

My girlfriend was talking about some atrocities our soldiers have committed to innocent people in Iraq/Afghanistan and was expressing disbelief at how it could happen...

All the most civilized nations have raped the world over.

I said something to the effect of "Well yeah, you take 18 year old boys and give them guns and tell them to KILL KILL KILL and then put people's lives in their hands without much in the way of consequences and what do you think is going to happen?"

Yes and no, there would always be those who can't handle the power they get, and those who would be professional about it.

That made me think after that about the scariness inherent in human nature. People without access to quality education who live in poverty don't have much excuse when they start doing idiotic, evil stuff like honor killings, corrective rape etc.... but I think a lot of humans, were authority and protection like civilization and law offers stripped away, would make life miserable for the rest of us.

Yes, law seems to be a necessity in order to keep society in check, at least some segments of the society. other societies work on tribal codes and tend to bend the law of the land to their native tradition.

I think this just shows how truly important it is to emphasize offering education and a higher quality of life to people globally in any way possible... people who understand more things tend to behave not because some authority figure will bring down consequences on them but because they want to.

Yes, I agree that study slowly and painfully makes a primate into a human.

 

[waitasec]

i wonder how a construction worker living abroad for almost 10 years as the owner of a local mosque is considered uneducated...:areyoucra
there is no excuse for this...none.

 

[BadBeast]

I think what scares people the most, is that you don't have to scratch the thin veneer of civilisation very deeply to reveal the unthinkable in humanity. Those Guards in the Nazi Deathcamps, they were all just normal people, Shopkeepers, Farmers, Civil Servants, whatever, then, after a few months of Basic Training, they were willing to commit the most atrocious acts, justifying them with the old "I was just following orders" override. And this is by no means rare. Indeed, most Militaries excell in making normal people do the most horrific things. It's a part of our nature that we rarely look at in ourselves, preferring to label those who commit such acts as "Inhuman", ''Evil'' or "Monsters". Much easier than admitting to ourselves that the Monster is there in all of us, ready to be released when the circumstances demand it.

 

[JustWondering]

I think what scares people the most, is that you don't have to scratch the thin veneer of civilisation very deeply to reveal the unthinkable in humanity. Those Guards in the Nazi Deathcamps, they were all just normal people, Shopkeepers, Farmers, Civil Servants, whatever, then, after a few months of Basic Training, they were willing to commit the most atrocious acts, justifying them with the old "I was just following orders" override. And this is by no means rare. Indeed, most Militaries excell in making normal people do the most horrific things. It's a part of our nature that we rarely look at in ourselves, preferring to label those who commit such acts as "Inhuman", ''Evil'' or "Monsters". Much easier than admitting to ourselves that the Monster is there in all of us, ready to be released when the circumstances demand it.

I totally concur.

 

[linwood]

That's awful if true. Any Muslims following this thread have any input on this?

Oh boy...Here we go!

 

[YmirGF]

Oh boy...Here we go!

: hamster ::biglaugh:: hamster :

 

[Meow Mix]

I think what scares people the most, is that you don't have to scratch the thin veneer of civilisation very deeply to reveal the unthinkable in humanity. Those Guards in the Nazi Deathcamps, they were all just normal people, Shopkeepers, Farmers, Civil Servants, whatever, then, after a few months of Basic Training, they were willing to commit the most atrocious acts, justifying them with the old "I was just following orders" override. And this is by no means rare. Indeed, most Militaries excell in making normal people do the most horrific things. It's a part of our nature that we rarely look at in ourselves, preferring to label those who commit such acts as "Inhuman", ''Evil'' or "Monsters". Much easier than admitting to ourselves that the Monster is there in all of us, ready to be released when the circumstances demand it.

I will agree that there's a potential monster in each of us, but that it can be quelched with introspection, inquiry, and discovery.

I would allow myself to be killed before I would murder other human beings, or allow them to be murdered -- within reason.

Sure, if bank robbers were holding up a bank and I was hiding and they started offing people I would *probably* remain hidden to save my life.

But if I found myself in a situation where it was either help the state systematically committ genocide or be killed myself, I would offer as much help to people as I could before getting caught and killed myself. I know everyone thinks "easy to say, hard to do" but I genuinely feel that there's a point where I would say "No way."

 

[Autodidact]

This issue has been kicked around here for YEARS. There are basically 3 response:
1. Its a lie it never happened. The Sunni's made it all up
2. Muhammad teated her more like his daughter and never actually had sex with her. She was his serving girl.
3. Given the culture of the times it was no big deal.

Also, it was right for Muhammad only because he was God's prophet, and wrong for other men.

 

[Badran]

That's awful if true. Any Muslims following this thread have any input on this?

Here is a thread about the subject if you're interested. Just skip through it.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-do-mohammed-pope-provide-moral-guidance.html

And here is one presenting shia muslims opinion on this, just read the page it will open on as thats the one presenting shia's view. In case it doesn't open on that particular page, its page 16.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/95717-pedophilia-islam-16.html

This is not accepted behavior to all muslims at all. Neither is arranged marriage exclusive to Islamic culture. Even the opinions of people who consider that this story is true but only exclusive to Muhammad, means that they wouldn't do so themselves. So its far from accepted behavior.

 

[Meow Mix]

Here is a thread about the subject if you're interested. Just skip through it.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-do-mohammed-pope-provide-moral-guidance.html

And here is one presenting shia muslims opinion on this, just read the page it will open on as thats the one presenting shia's view. In case it doesn't open on that particular page, its page 16.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/95717-pedophilia-islam-16.html

This is not accepted behavior to all muslims at all. Neither is arranged marriage exclusive to Islamic culture. Even the opinions of people who consider that this story is true but only exclusive to Muhammad, means that they wouldn't do so themselves. So its far from accepted behavior.

Thanks for the sources, I'll be looking at them. And I do agree with you that it isn't necessarily exclusive to Islamic culture or that Muslims would necessarily agree with it.

(Though I can't comment much until I read the sources, I wanted to add but it is confusing to me if a prophet of God does something as awful as that without being reprimanded by God for it.

Then again, I'm an atheist. I think all religions have goofy and dark parts to them. Christianity has the Bible which tells us that homosexuals are abominations for no discernible reason. It's also full of other ridiculous things like bears mauling children for making fun of someone, and so forth. Yet I don't see Christians who are bound by that; I see many Christians who are excellent people that do good works.

I see the same of Muslims on RF, which is practically the only exposure to Muslims I've ever had (besides having a few Muslim neighbors a few years ago, who I also liked from the small exposure I had to them. They cooked me some lamb, and it was excellent!!!)

So, I'm interested in this thing but no matter what I learn I know it won't affect my opinion of Muslims in general. It might affect my opinion of the religion though, just as my opinion of the Bible is very low because of the inexcusable nastiness contained within it.

 

[kai]

The thing is it was par for the course at the time to arrange marriage even to a child! but add that to the idea that the prophet was the perfect man and his actions should be emulated and hey presto it slots right into 2010--for some anyway.

 

[Meow Mix]

The thing is it was par for the course at the time to arrange marriage even to a child! but add that to the idea that the prophet was the perfect man and his actions should be emulated and hey presto it slots right into 2010--for some anyway.

Arguably, unless I'm just WHOLLY ignorant of Islamic theology (which I may be), even if it's true that Mohammed did this thing it might be argued that even prophets aren't perfect since they're still human after all.

But come to think of it, Christians say that Jesus was perfect... I don't know if Muslims think that too or not.

I really can't comment more until I learn more about the subject. I don't want to be one of those people I frown on who talk about things they know very little about. I'll have to learn about it first before I get more into it. Just offering that (possibly ignorant) possibility.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Just another example of how Islam is incompatible with the civilized world. If they want to behave like cavemen they should be sealed away in caves.

There are already plenty of them here, and they act very civil and polite. When I was working at a gas station this one Muslim trucker would come in if he was in the area for his prayer. He was one of the nicest customers we had. And at a college graduation commencement I was at last year a Muslim was one of the graduates to receive a Masters so she is obviously way above acting like a caveman, as is her husband who was there to support her. I find it the notion that a minority hand full of primitive extremist defines the behavior of an entire religion to be rather odd.
But I agree the two men should be punished.

 

[kai]

The Perfect Man

People can seek light from his Message and guidance from his life; the two are the eternal sources of guidance for men and women in their struggle to achieve perfection in the moral, spiritual and social areas of life. He has set very high and noble ideals through his practical example for all of mankind to follow in every field of life.


http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/muhammad/perfect_man.html

 

[Starsoul]

It is more or less accurate, Meow Mix. It is recorded by Muhammad Ibn Ismail Ibn Ibrahim Ibn al-Mughirah Ibn Bardizbah al-Bukhari and he is one of the most highly regarded scholars ever to exist in Islam. Aisha was 6 when she was wedded to Muhammad, who as 54 at the time and the marriage was "consummated" when she was 9. Only Muslims who are embarrassed by Buhkari's account question its authenticity. Up until the very recently, Muslims didn't find anything wrong with this whatsoever. It is conceivable that this very post will spark a flood of outrage from the resident Muslims.

Outrage at a blatant display of rigid blockheadedness rather than anything else.

Hazrat Ayesha was around 19 years of age when she got married.

The Hadees regarding the calculation of her actual age is based on the fact that people used to quote their age in those times according to some important event of history and used to refer that event as a landmark BEFORE or AFTER which they would remember their own age, or they would cite their age as "this many years before that event, or several years after That particular event".

In the time of the Prophet (pbuh) when Islam spread, people who had embraced Islam used to cite their age AFTER they had embraced Islam( and its understood that people were well aware of each other's real ages ,they just used a reference to inform of their age as a Muslim) hence they would be seen saying,

I'm 9 years of age (into Islam) and I'm 6 yrs of age (Into ISlam), hence the frame of reference they were using ( which was well understood and recognized as a major event at that time) was used based on the understanding that people knew that said event to have happened at a particular time and was common practice.)

Being born before Islam means being born before the Call of Islam.


The life of Hazrat Aisha (Radhiyallahu-Anha) is proof that a woman can be far more learned than men and that she can be the teacher of scholars and experts.

Her life is also proof that the same woman can be totally feminine and be a source of pleasure, joy and comfort to her husband. To negate the status of Hazrat Aisha RA by designing a conspiracy against her age, a hadith had been floated after specific alteration and without contextual references to prove the false claim that she was married with Muhammad SAWW (PBUH) around 9 years of age . The Hadith is referred to without citing valid references from all the hadiths that fall into its context, and explain its actual meaning.


There is material from both the hadith writers (Sahih and Muslim) and earlier Islamic histories suggesting Aisha must have been much older than nine when married.

1) According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about 8 years before Hijrah( Migration). However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time.

So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage has to be between 14 to 21.

2) According to almost All the Historians, Asma; the elder sister of Aisha, was 10 years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time.

Thus, Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

3) The hadith regarding her age has several aspects. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child.

Secondly, the age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina.


Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.


This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not 9 as misinterpreted/alleged by the perpetrators of that thought.

“Ever since I can remember (or understand things) my parents were following the religion of Islam.” [8]


This is tantamount to saying that she was born sometime before her parents accepted Islam but she can only remember them practising Islam. No doubt she and her parents knew well whether she was born before or after they accepted Islam, as their acceptance of Islam was such a landmark event in their life which took place just after the Holy Prophet received his mission from God.

If she had been born after they accepted Islam it would make no sense for her to say that she always remembered them as following Islam. Only if she was born before they accepted Islam, would it make sense for her to say that she can only remember them being Muslims, as she was too young to remember things before their conversion. This is consistent with her being born before the Call, and being perhaps four or five years old at the time of the Call, which was also almost the time when her parents accepted Islam.




Two further evidences cited by Maulana Muhammad Ali
In the footnotes of his Urdu translation and commentary of Sahih Bukhari, entitled Fadl-ul-Bari, Maulana Muhammad Ali had pointed out reports of two events which show that Aisha could not have been born later than the year of the Call. These are as follows.


1. The above mentioned statement by Aisha in Bukhari, about her earliest memory of her parents being that they were followers of Islam, begins with the following words in its version in Bukhari’s Kitab-ul-Kafalat. We quote this from the English translation of Bukhari by M. Muhsin Khan:


“Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshipping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah’s Apostle visited us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant.” [9]

“This report sheds some light on the question of the age of Aisha. … The mention of the persecution of Muslims along with the emigration to Ethiopia clearly shows that this refers to the fifth or the sixth year of the Call. … At that time Aisha was of an age to discern things, and so her birth could not have been later than the first year of the Call. This clearly shows she was more than 15 at the time of consummation of her marriage.

2. There is a report in Sahih Bukhari as follows:
“On the day (of the battle) of Uhud when (some) people retreated and left the Prophet, I saw Aisha daughter of Abu Bakr and Umm Sulaim, with their robes tucked up so that the bangles around their ankles were visible hurrying with their water skins (in another narration it is said, ‘carrying the water skins on their backs&#8217. Then they would pour the water in the mouths of the people, and return to fill the water skins again and came back again to pour water in the mouths of the people.” [11]


Maulana Muhammad Ali writes in a footnote under this report:
“It should also be noted that Aisha joined the Holy Prophet’s household only one year before the battle of Uhud. According to the common view she would be only ten years of age at this time, which is certainly not a suitable age for the work she did on this occasion. This also shows that she was not so young at this time.” [12]

If, as shown in the previous section above, Aisha was 19 at the time of the consummation of her marriage, then she would be twenty years old at the time of the battle of Uhud. It may be added that on the earlier occasion of the battle of Badr when some Muslim youths tried, out of eagerness, to go along with the Muslim army to the field of battle, the Holy Prophet Muhammad sent them back on account of their young age. It seems, therefore, highly unlikely that if Aisha was ten years old the Holy Prophet would have allowed her to accompany the army to the field of battle.

 

[Badran]

Thanks for the sources, I'll be looking at them. And I do agree with you that it isn't necessarily exclusive to Islamic culture or that Muslims would necessarily agree with it.

You're welcome. You'd be surprised how many muslims are against the idea of arranged marriage. There are lots of Muslims who are even insulted if you simply ask them if they'd like to take part in a "gathering" to check out someone else and see if they like them (given that both parties will be aware of whats going on). Particularly women, a lot of muslim women dislike the idea of meeting someone they don't know at all and never encountered just to see if they would like each other, they look at it as an act of desperation or something. While others view it as perfectly okay. My point with all of this is just to give you an example of how different many muslims look at things.

An example of other cultures in which arranged marriages are also found is india. I don't know particularly how things are done there, but i'm pretty sure that the idea is found in that culture, and been there for a long time. The similarities between different cultures in how they used to view women, and how they still do (but not as much or as bad as in the past) just shows that it is not particularly about a certain religion. It seems to me that its a very unfortunate fact that through history and still today a lot of people from different cultures and with different beliefs tend to mistreat women.

(Though I can't comment much until I read the sources, I wanted to add but it is confusing to me if a prophet of God does something as awful as that without being reprimanded by God for it.

I must have misrepresented what i had to say. What i meant is, for those who believe that this story has happened, but view it as a privilege only given to the prophet (pbuh), they would too view this as a terrible thing (arranging a marriage to a child in general), and they wouldn't accept it as something that we're entitled to do, but only the prophet was. Now, just to make things easier, as you noted the difference in the way of thinking would play a role here. Try to see the following from a theist's eye. A theist who follows a certain religion, and believes in a certain man to be a prophet from a god etc.. They look at it like this. Muhammad being a prophet, makes a world of difference. Firstly, most if not literally all muslim women viewed the prophet as the best man alive, and would have wanted to marry him. Second, it is possible that god inspired him that Aisha would approve of marriage from him when she's older, and the reason for her living with him from early on, would be due to the role she is going to play in Islam later on. Meaning that as she would play a huge role in Islam's progress and in teaching Islam to muslims in the future, it would be essential for her to be next to the prophet, share his experiences and almost be raised by him. I'm just giving you an example of how some would understand why it was a one time exception. They don't see it as a mistake the prophet has done, but as an exceptional rule, due to certain possible circumstances.

That said, i should tell you now that i personally don't accept this story.

Then again, I'm an atheist. I think all religions have goofy and dark parts to them. Christianity has the Bible which tells us that homosexuals are abominations for no discernible reason. It's also full of other ridiculous things like bears mauling children for making fun of someone, and so forth. Yet I don't see Christians who are bound by that; I see many Christians who are excellent people that do good works.

I see the same of Muslims on RF, which is practically the only exposure to Muslims I've ever had (besides having a few Muslim neighbors a few years ago, who I also liked from the small exposure I had to them. They cooked me some lamb, and it was excellent!!!)

So, I'm interested in this thing but no matter what I learn I know it won't affect my opinion of Muslims in general.

Thanks, thats good to know.

It might affect my opinion of the religion though, just as my opinion of the Bible is very low because of the inexcusable nastiness contained within it.

Thats understandable of course. Its worth mentioning that the Quran isn't related to this subject. As this is a story coming from a hadith.