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Behind the killing of 8 Gazan family members

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
The Israelites were in the land of Israel for thousands of years until, after the failed Jewish rebellion against Roman oppression
Precisely. They were evicted after three bloody rebellions motivated by fanaticism. That was 2000 years ago, but the Zionists want to delete the whole of subsequent history.

There is no Palestinian land unless you are talking about Jordan.
And that sums up the problem. You think all Palestine was given to the Jews by God. I don't. There's not much room for compromise.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
There is no Palestinian land unless you are talking about Jordan.

So what's your humane solution for the population of Palestinians on the West Bank? Assimilation? Expulsion? Apartheid? Genocide? Or something else?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
There is no Palestinian land unless you are talking about Jordan.
So what's your humane solution for the population of Palestinians on the West Bank? Assimilation? Expulsion? Apartheid? Genocide? Or something else?
Those who deny the Palestinian right to self determination have no right to demand it for themselves.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Those who deny the Palestinian right to self determination have no right to demand it for themselves.
I really do hear you on this, Jay, but for the life of me I don't see how the two-state solution is workable anymore, perhaps sometime in the future, but certainly not in the existing climate of distrust.
 

ametist

Active Member
That's rather a misinformed stance, David. The Israelites were in the land of Israel for thousands of years until, after the failed Jewish rebellion against Roman oppression, they were enslaved and scattered to the wind as punishment.

The Israelis ARE in their natural homeland.

You conveniently forget that America was stolen by force of arms from the Native Americans; Australia was stolen by force of arms from the Aborigines and Britain was stolen by force of arms from the Celts - and numerous other cases I could cite.
This is a rather pointless arguement as you yourself indicated in your third paragraph. So native indians should come and demand US territory back. Or should we make them extint to avoid such demands.
Besides that land firt belonged to ancient egyptians and i am sure in current egypt their far relatives still exist.
If you think you have a right to a country of your own where your great grand father lived, that other person has that right too. Seeing whole region and all your neighboors as enemy is not of an healthy mind or attitude especially when you are the strong party.
 
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xkatz

Well-Known Member
"UGH THOSE EVIL IDF ZIONISTS! MUH JUSTICE!" -Every "social justice warrior" on Facebook

The_Jew.jpg


Why is it that Zionism, which is basically Jewish nationalism/self-determination, is inherently evil and part of a worldwide conspiracy, while all other forms of nationalism/self-determination are ok? I am not going to defend every action that the Israeli gov't and the IDF make and I do think that there is a real need to stop this war... But to all those "anti-Zionists", what would the appropriate response to the rockets firing into Israel be? Just stand down until the rockets and mortar start killing people?
 
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ametist

Active Member
"UGH THOSE EVIL IDF ZIONISTS! MUH JUSTICE!" -Every "social justice warrior" on Facebook

The_Jew.jpg


Why is it that Zionism, which is basically Jewish nationalism/self-determination, is inherently evil and part of a worldwide conspiracy, while all other forms of nationalism/self-determination are ok? I am not going to defend every action that the Israeli gov't and the IDF make and I do think that there is a real need to stop this war... But to all those "anti-Zionists", what would the appropriate response to the rockets firing into Israel be? Just stand down until the rockets and mortar start killing people?

The rockets are not falling on their land since they have a very developed defense system.
So on the other side do palestinians have enough medicine to cure themselves after the rocket falls? This is not a balanced fight. Any reason created to attack palestine definetly damages them greatly and theatens them like a genocide due to that inbalance and extremism as a result is likely to occur from the weak side. Any sane mind can see that possibilty.people in paris attack synagogs because international community enjoys to watch that war for some reason.
Also this is a shameful karikatur. As i said before there is nothing to laugh in this topic and many jews can see the weirdness in the topic. It is a shame to present them all that way.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
From The Times of Israel:
Palestinian UN rep says every missile fired from Gaza at Israel is ‘a crime against humanity’

In interview with PA TV, diplomat details possible risks to the Palestinians of their joining the International Criminal Court

The Palestinian representative to the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva said that every rocket and mortar fired from Gaza toward Israel is a “crime against humanity.”

Speaking on July 9 to Palestinian Authority TV on the possible risks involved if Palestinians leaders ask to join the International Criminal Court — as they have threatened to do in order to push for measures against Israel — Ambassador Ibrahim Kraishi said the “Palestinian weakness” in terms of international law is the indiscriminate firing of rockets at Israel.

“The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets,” said Kraishi during the interview, translated by MEMRI.

The ambassador said that, by contrast, Israel’s actions follows legal procedures, because the IDF warns Gazan civilians to leave sites and areas before they are bombed.

“Many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures.”

“As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out,” he says.

Kraishi also said the “settlements [in the West Bank], the Judaization [of Jerusalem], the checkpoints, the arrests, and so on” were also considered “war crimes” under the Fourth Geneva Convention.
True ...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Also true, from *Haaretz:
Is Israel committing war crimes in Gaza?

The data indicating that many of the casualties in Gaza are civilians raises the prospect that Israel has committed forbidden actions. There's a fine line between war and war crimes.

The latest round of fighting in Gaza once again raises questions about what measures are permissible and what are forbidden in times like these. Legal discussion of the subject is based on three main principles: the principle of distinction which requires to distinguish between civilians and combatants and to attack only combatants and military targets; the duty to take precautionary measures to avoid hurting civilians; and if a military target is being hit but civilians are liable to be harmed, this is illegal unless the harm to civilians is proportionate to the concrete and direct military advantage expected to result from the attack.

Clearly, the first principle is not being followed by Hamas, which is indiscriminately firing rockets into Israel with the intention of harming the civilian population. It’s easy to say and prove without going into a complicated discussion that with this rocket fire Hamas is committing war crimes. The positioning of the rockets and rocket launchers in the midst of a civilian population is also unacceptable, and if Hamas is using civilians as a human shield, this is a war crime.

But bear in mind that it’s not just deliberate targeting of civilians that is prohibited. Strikes that by their nature will indiscriminately harm civilians, or civilian objects, alongside military targets, are also forbidden. Moreover, military strikes aimed solely at a military target but which hurt civilians may be prohibited if precautionary measures were not taken, or if the amount of expected civilian casualties is not proportionate.

Although each instance must be separately and carefully examined, the data that indicates that many of the casualties in Gaza are civilians, combined with some reports about the circumstances in which these civilians died, raises the prospect that Israel has committed forbidden actions, some of which could possibly be defined as war crimes. The quantity of these cases makes it very difficult to absolve them based on arguments of “inaccuracy” or “error.”

According to the figures published to date, more than a fifth of the dead in Gaza are children, and many more are civilian noncombatants. Certain instances are particularly troubling: The deaths of eight Palestinians who were watching the World Cup at a café appears to be an attack on a civilian target. For even if a Hamas or Islamic Jihad militant being targeted by the army was in the café, a strike on a crowded civilian café ostensibly seems to be an indiscriminate attack on a civilian target.

Another example is the late-night bombing of a residential building in Beit Hanoun, which killed five members of the Hamad family, including a 16-year-old girl. Although the target – the sixth person killed in the strike – was an Islamic Jihad commander who lived there, this case also sets off a warning light as being an attack on a civilian target. Even if the IDF’s claim that the building was being used as an Islamic Jihad command center (and was therefore a legitimate military target) is accepted, the strike still caused disproportionate harm to civilians.

In another instance, eight civilians, including six children ages 8-13, were killed in a strike on the Kawara family home. As Amir Oren wrote here on Friday, the IDF is not only striking buildings used to store rockets and as launching pads, but the houses of the families of Hamas commanders. These cases are troubling and raise the question: What would Israel say about an attack on the civilian residence of an IDF battalion commander, killing the civilians living there? If such an act is illegal, then so it what is being done in Gaza. That is, unless Israel can prove that each of these buildings was making an effective contribution to the Hamas military effort at the time it was attacked. In this context, it bears noting that the issuing of a warning to civilians living in the building (which, based on the reports, has only been done some of the time) does not relieve the army of responsibility. Not just because the warning time is short and not always long enough for the occupants to vacate the house, and not just because, often, the civilians have nowhere to run to – but because it does not alter the fact that this is a civilian target that shouldn’t be attacked to begin with.

Not every forbidden action in the rules of war amounts to a war crime. But the multiple instances of civilians being killed gives rise to the fear that, as Alterman put it in 1948, we are again “Mumbling ‘necessity’ and ‘revenge,’ are being forced into the war criminals’ arena.” But unlike in 1948, when Ben-Gurion praised Alterman and instructed that the poem be distributed to every IDF soldier, now we have a broad wall of silence: Most of the media avoids reporting on these instances, and meanwhile we are seeing a worrying number of civilian casualties.
And, in my opinion, those on both sides who persist in the claim that "their war crimes justifies our war crimes" are complicit in the greatest crime of all.

* Note: this is from the Haaretz premium service which requires subscription.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
This is not a balanced fight.

Noam Chomsky, a Jewish linguist, called what is happening in Palestine a murder, not a war:

10478602_1502439853306494_7288841773874506192_n.jpg


Well, he did make me miserable with his Theoretical Linguistics courses in the English department at college :(
 

Knight of Albion

Well-Known Member
This is a rather pointless arguement as you yourself indicated in your third paragraph. So native indians should come and demand US territory back. Or should we make them extint to avoid such demands.
Besides that land firt belonged to ancient egyptians and i am sure in current egypt their far relatives still exist.
If you think you have a right to a country of your own where your great grand father lived, that other person has that right too. Seeing whole region and all your neighboors as enemy is not of an healthy mind or attitude especially when you are the strong party.

If there is no resort to history, then the Palestinians have no resort to it either...

The Israelis can at least source ownership a lot further back in time than the Palestinians.

But both sides must agree to share and make compromises to attain and preserve peace.
 

xkatz

Well-Known Member
The rockets are not falling on their land since they have a very developed defense system.
This is NOT true at all. Rockets have been landing in Israel, and in fact two hit the Palestinian cities of Bethlehem and Hebron. The Iron Dome is not a perfect system- it cannot counter every single rocket and it is completely useless against mortar attacks, not to mention that firing a single Iron Dome counter missle alone cost ~$60k.
 
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CMike

Well-Known Member
Noam Chomsky, a Jewish linguist, called what is happening in Palestine a murder, not a war:



Well, he did make me miserable with his Theoretical Linguistics courses in the English department at college :(

That's because Hamas intentionally stores and fires it's rockets from schools, mosques, hospitals, populated areas, etc.

That within itself is a war crime.
 

Smart_Guy

...
Premium Member
That's because Hamas intentionally stores and fires it's rockets from schools, mosques, hospitals, populated areas, etc.

That within itself is a war crime.

I agree.

But how else can they do it? They don't have military bases built by allowances of millions of dollars annually received from first world countries, or any claim to military fit areas. How else can they fight back to protect their land and people?

But to be honest, if the Israeli occupants are indeed as nice as some say, don't really wanna ultimately: take over the land, commit genocide on Palestinians and above all restrict access to the holy place, then I really really want the Palestinians to stop and accept reality. Israel already claimed the land and became the ruler. Why the needless bloodshed?

And I know what I'm talking about. I'm Hijazi and now I'm part of a bigger new country that took over, but considers me one of them.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I must admit, I am deeply puzzled by the outrage that some people apparently have for this conflict being "unbalanced." "Unbalanced" because Israel has suffered no direct casualties of rocket attack so far, whereas there have been over a hundred Palestinian casualties of Israeli bombing.

However, Israel appears to have avoided casualties largely because of the Iron Dome defensive weapon system, which has a ninety-plus percent success rate in taking out missiles inbound to populated areas, and because the Israeli government has, at tremendous expense, subsidized every single home built having a bomb shelter room, and nearly every other building or complex having a readily accessible bomb shelter within or in an adjoining space.

Whereas during their leadership of Gaza, Hamas has not turned its (admittedly much more limited) resources toward either defensive capabilties or providing shelters to its populace, but instead has done its best to import or build as many offensive rockets as it can. And it now fires those rockets from within populated civilian areas, and urges its citizens to become human shields to protect those weapons and the terrorists who fire them, apparently to maximize carnage so as to provoke outrage and sympathy for their cause in the international community.

I am at a loss to understand why Israel should be condemned for being unfair for utilizing defenses to protect its citizens simply because Hamas has not even tried to provide those under its rule with similar defenses, or are using those under its rule as human shields to protect their weapons and fighters.

No other country in the world would tolerate a thousand rockets in a week being shot into their country, regardless of how successful their defenses might be. No other country in the world, if its retaliation for such attacks included not only warning leaflets and radio broadcasts to the civilian populace, but direct phone calls and warning shots with unarmed missiles prior to live fire, would be urged to exercise more restraint or be called murderers.

No amount of double-talk about Israel as a "western colonial power" or "Zionist nationalist occupiers" or whatever similar crap will change the fact that Israel is being judged and condemned uniquely because it is a Jewish country, and there will always be plenty of people who are happy for an excuse to hate Jews. The fact that they can now do so under the mask of humanistic concern for those who are all too happy to claim the mantle of helpless victim is just icing on the cake to such individuals. But it's the same old anti-Semitism under a different set of clothes. End of story.
 
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