Being "transgender" is a form of gender stereotyping.

[Penumbra]

The mere existence of psychology, the mere treatment of disorders throughout the past decades, is all the evidence necessary. If you want therapists who encourage and egg on disorders than I simply don't know what to say.

Except that being transgender is not considered a psychological disorder by most professional bodies these days. And therapy to try to get someone not to be transgender is not shown to be an effective treatment. It's even illegal in some places due to it being harmful. It's not good to cite psychology as evidence when the leading bodies of psychology disagree with you.

But I'm sure the American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, The Endocrine Society, France and Britain's national health systems, and a variety of other professional bodies that support gender transition could learn a thing or two from a random guy online and his opinions.

 

[1137]

Except that being transgender is not considered a psychological disorder by most professional bodies these days. And therapy to try to get someone not to be transgender is not shown to be an effective treatment. It's even illegal in some places due to it being harmful. It's not good to cite psychology as evidence when the leading bodies of psychology disagree with you.

But I'm sure the American Medical Association, American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, The Endocrine Society, France and Britain's national health systems, and a variety of other professional bodies that support gender transition could learn a thing or two from a random guy online and his opinions.

I never said I was against transition, just that we need better methods, and I'm beyond fed up with arguing straw men over and over and over. Also, if you actually do some research on disorders, gender dysohoria can certainly be a disorder, even if they change the name and even though it doesn't definitionally cause dysfunction (which it obviously does but whatever).

 

[1137]

You guys want to settle because it worked for you? That's fine as your not in the field and can't influence it. But it's nauseatingly selfish to just stagnate because you're better. Then again we take the word of the APA here as god apparently so you're all against most nontraditional practices and pro horrifying torture techniques.

 

[Revoltingest]

Being trans is a mismatch between brain & body gender.
If one's mind could be treated to change its gender, it would be strictly psychological.
But this cannot be prayed, counseled or medicated away.
So because difficulties arise in the mind, & the treatment involves the body, it's both a psychological & a physical disorder.

Some things cannot simply be said to be one thing but not the other.
Tis like trying to classify light as either a particle or a wave.
There....now that's settled.

 

[Wirey]

Being trans is a mismatch between brain & body gender.
If one's mind could be treated to change its gender, it would be strictly psychological.
But this cannot be prayed, counseled or medicated away.
So because difficulties arise in the mind, & the treatment involves the body, it's both a psychological & a physical disorder.

Some things cannot simply be said to be one thing but not the other.
Tis like trying to classify light as either a particle or a wave.
There....now that's settled.

Finally!

 

[dust1n]

You even defined the issues of disorders in this post, and it all but states it's the same thing with a simply different name. The term "disorder" has a lot of negative connotations and the V went to great lengths to be better than previous DSMs. Doesn't change the fact that gender dysphoria is identical to a mental disorder.

I'm finished speaking on this topic except to ensure readers don't accept shadow wolf as a viable psychological source.

So this line, "This ensures treatment access for individuals who continue to undergo hormone therapy, related surgery, or psychotherapy or counseling to support their gender transition" doesn't mean anything in particular to you?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I never said I was against transition, just that we need better methods, and I'm beyond fed up with arguing straw men over and over and over.

Saying it's "pretending," saying we should "just learn to live with it," and calling it "torture support" gives me no reason, at all, to believe you support transitioning. To me, it seems of the same avenue as someone who blames black people for the problems of society, yells out every racial slur they know of, but yet of course they aren't racist because they have a few black friends.
And you keep saying we need better ways, and the Standards of Care have made improvements in regards to those who can be treated, surgical methods have improved, and socially things are slowly improving. But what other "better method" do we need? According to you, it's to just learn to live/deal with it, even though that does not work. As many as 90% (some studies put the number at over 90%) of patients who transition have an improved quality of life. That is a very high rate of success. The alternative, to live as the physical sex we were born as, will not work because our brains are not that sex, and it's similar to telling homosexuals they should just deal with it and not be homosexual. There are plenty of studies to show it just does not work.

But it's nauseatingly selfish to just stagnate because you're better.

I directly quoted from the WPATH Standards of Care that things have been improving. Yet you accuse others of not taking in your words?

 

[1137]

Being trans is a mismatch between brain & body gender.
If one's mind could be treated to change its gender, it would be strictly psychological.
But this cannot be prayed, counseled or medicated away.
So because difficulties arise in the mind, & the treatment involves the body, it's both a psychological & a physical disorder.

Some things cannot simply be said to be one thing but not the other.
Tis like trying to classify light as either a particle or a wave.
There....now that's settled.

Agreed, like most disorders there's a physical cause and the psychological function.

 

[1137]

So this line, "This ensures treatment access for individuals who continue to undergo hormone therapy, related surgery, or psychotherapy or counseling to support their gender transition" doesn't mean anything in particular to you?

Not sure what point you're making, especially since thus far you don't understand mine.

 

[1137]

Saying it's "pretending," saying we should "just learn to live with it," and calling it "torture support" gives me no reason, at all, to believe you support transitioning.

Oh so transgenders shouldn't be allowed to live with it, they simply need to have a transition. Now I get where you're coming from. I also, again, made no torture comment aside from about the apa. This is laughable, and you are now ignored for continuous straw manning, preaching psychological ideas when you don't even have the knowledge to do so, and believing everyone should do things the way you think is right.

 

[1137]

If anyone else comments I'll need to make a new thread that's also eliminates the numerous straw men against me in the OP.

 

[dust1n]

Not sure what point you're making, especially since thus far you don't understand mine.

No, I got your point, because it was simple. It used to be called a disorder, now its called dysmorphia, but it's still a mental disorder. Great point.

I meant to quote this line: "It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."

This would imply that anyone who isn't going through clinically significant distress would not qualify as a mental disorder.

 

[1137]

No, I got your point, because it was simple. It used to be called a disorder, now its called dysmorphia, but it's still a mental disorder. Great point.

I meant to quote this line: "It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition."

This would imply that anyone who isn't going through clinically significant distress would not qualify as a mental disorder.

Right, there's no disorder with no dysfunction. But look at the life of my transgender friend. Major depression, dressing differently earns bullying so low self-esteem, self loathing, self harm... Gender dysphoria can be and often is a "disorder". The fact that it's comorbid only adds to this in that it often directly leads to other dysfunction. Apparently, which I learned researching for this thread earlier after it became about gender transition instead of the stereotypes it can bring up, transition is not as successful as I'd like and other disorders won't just vanish

 

[dust1n]

Right, there's no disorder with no dysfunction. But look at the life of my transgender friend. Major depression, dressing differently earns bullying so low self-esteem, self loathing, self harm... Gender dysphoria can be and often is a "disorder".

Saying gender dysphoria can be and often is a disorder is foundation ally different than saying that it is a disorder, which is what you had just did. Not to mention, the low self-esteem, self loathing, self harm, appears to be a functioning of the "earned bullying" as you coined it.

That aside... the gener dysphoria appears to be the problems associated with being a member of the opposite sex. You said you accepted the benefits from transition, but that you think something better was needed. However, you don't have anything better, and one has to be furnished by anyone as far as I know. The 10% negative effect rate of gender transitioning appears to be too high for a margin for a gender transition to be a remedy available, if I have understood you correctly. If it helps 90%, but hurts 10%, than no one should be supporting gender transition, if I've understood you correctly, because it's too much. This of course, ignores that fact that preventing the 90% from being able to get procedure would cause just as much pain and dysfunction, if not 9 times more.

The fact that it's comorbid only adds to this in that it often directly leads to other dysfunction. Apparently, which I learned researching for this thread earlier after it became about gender transition instead of the stereotypes it can bring up, transition is not as successful as I'd like and other disorders won't just vanish

Yet you've yet to offer any alternatives. Transition is not as successful as you'd like. What is as successful as you'd like?

 

[1137]

As I said if we're going to keep talking about disorders I'm going to go ahead and make a fresh three for it, as it's really now a matter of gender dysphoria here but the treating of disorders in general. I mean originally it was about the relationship between transgenders and gender stereotypes, but I feel safe assuming that's just long gone. But I can't do it this second.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh so transgenders shouldn't be allowed to live with it, they simply need to have a transition. Now I get where you're coming from. I also, again, made no torture comment aside from about the apa. This is laughable, and you are now ignored for continuous straw manning, preaching psychological ideas when you don't even have the knowledge to do so, and believing everyone should do things the way you think is right.

I'd go back and quote it, but it wouldn't do any good. Or that I quoted sources that show transitioning is rather successful.
We will gain nothing by hiding. Transitioning may have social difficulties, but it will never get any better if we just keep hiding. Do you think we'd have legal gay marriage is homosexuals lived in fear of the social repercussions? Of course not! It's no different with transitioning. Things will never get any better if we don't step out and live our lives. Minorities gain nothing if they let fear dictate their lives. Even if things get worse for me, it is for a cause that is much greater than myself, and it helps to ameliorate the social suffering of future generations of transsexuals.

 

[dust1n]

As I said if we're going to keep talking about disorders I'm going to go ahead and make a fresh three for it, as it's really now a matter of gender dysphoria here but the treating of disorders in general. I mean originally it was about the relationship between transgenders and gender stereotypes, but I feel safe assuming that's just long gone. But I can't do it this second.

I mean, I'm not asking for a book here, I'm just curious as to what you believe to be more effective and the more appropriate reaction?

 

[1137]

I mean, I'm not asking for a book here, I'm just curious as to what you believe to be more effective and the more appropriate reaction?

For dysphoria? No idea, that's a full on investigation. The problem, as we've seen here, is once something's good enough every body is happy. I also know that intense surgery is a last resort in almost any situation, and so certain members should stop throwing it out as idea numero uno.

 

[1137]

Look at it this way: we live in a world where placebos without deception are becoming supplements to medications and used for migraines as well as IBS. We have a long way to go.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Apparently science denial isn't just for YECs.