Being "transgender" is a form of gender stereotyping.

[Orbit]

So apparently I hold a "surprising" position in this, but I don't understand the recent transgender movements. In case one doesn't know, being transgender would essentially be like an individual who is physically/biologically a woman having "masculine" mental state and so considering themselves a male. See the problem? Transgender individuals buy right in and add to gender stereotyping by deciding they can't feel how they do as the sex they are. Women can have certain psychological mindsets because they're too masculine and vise versa.

Whether we are male or female is determined by physical and biological factors, which is the entire point of the definitions. Beyond that, gender equality says let people be who they are. Transgender movements, on the other hand, say men and women are only allowed to feel certain ways.

Thoughts?

Also, I understand transgender is kind of an umbrella term. I'm discussing men/women who are fully biologically / physically one sex and want go be another.

You misunderstand transgender folk. Most are intersexed. Our sex is the product of anatomy, chromosomes, brain structure, and hormones. In a small percentage of the population, these things do not line up as one sex or the other. For example, where xx is female, and xy is male, we have individuals who are xxy or xyy. Research on the brains of transgender cadavers has shown that the brain structure of M to F trnasnsexuals had a female structure for example.

The movements for transgender rights simply do not say what you are presenting here, that certain people can only feel certain ways. I'd like to see a reference for that, to see where you get your information. Transgender folk are simply fighting for civil rights as a group.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How? They hold to the exact same social constructs as the culture, encourage them even.

He's saying that social constructs in regards to gender are generally based on physiological differences between males and females. Males are generally masculine due to biology and females are generally feminine due to biology. There's variance within those but there are generalities. So trans men will generally present ourselves and act in certain ways as males (especially after being on testosterone therapy and I can testify to that) and vice versa for trans women.

 

[1137]

But, can you tolerate seeing a male staring back when you look in the mirror? Does being male feel hollow and empty to you, and that every day you are doing nothing more than going through with the motions? Does being male cause you a great deal of distress? Have you spent years yearning to live as female?
How would you feel if someone did call you a woman? How do you feel when people call you a man?
Having feminine traits doesn't automatically eyou are female, or even identify as female.
And, no, it's not about gender stereotyping because, no matter how masculine or feminine you act, the brain has a gender, and for some of us it does not match the sex we were born as.

Replace the word male with numerous different terms and you have a description of depression. The therapy for depression does not involve encouraging the depressed delusions nor encouraging intense self-mutilation (or doctor aided mutilation. In fact, it's quite silly to say the brain has a gender. If you are a man (XY chromosomes, penis, testicles) and you have a "feminine" brain then obviously males can have brain be as such. As I said, I have vastly more feminine traits than masculine, yet I am not a woman. The only benefit to saying otherwise would be pity and self-importance, which are also counterproductive to treatment for depression in a lot of cases. If you hate yourself, there are drugs and therapy for that.

Because we so very clearly fall outside of the "normal" female/male binary. There are actually many different types of people who do, but transsexuals demonstrate that gender is internally hard wired. Social constructs may be that men and women wear different styles of jeans, but it is the internalized identity that drives an individual towards either side, or in some cases both or neither, or even other genders all together.

Ah, now we are treating people as statistics rather than an individual, and on top of encouraging gender stereotyping encouraging a statistical view where outliers from the mean are either outcast or, in this case, special to the point of being free from objective reality.

 

[dust1n]

If you are a man (XY chromosomes, penis, testicles) and you have a "feminine" brain then obviously males can have brain be as such.

What if I'm an XXY castrato?

 

[1137]

What if I'm an XXY castrato?

That's entirely different IMO.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Replace the word male with numerous different terms and you have a description of depression. The therapy for depression does not involve encouraging the depressed delusions nor encouraging intense self-mutilation (or doctor aided mutilation. In fact, it's quite silly to say the brain has a gender. If you are a man (XY chromosomes, penis, testicles) and you have a "feminine" brain then obviously males can have brain be as such. As I said, I have vastly more feminine traits than masculine, yet I am not a woman. The only benefit to saying otherwise would be pity and self-importance, which are also counterproductive to treatment for depression in a lot of cases. If you hate yourself, there are drugs and therapy for that.
Ah, now we are treating people as statistics rather than an individual, and on top of encouraging gender stereotyping encouraging a statistical view where outliers from the mean are either outcast or, in this case, special to the point of being free from objective reality.

I am diagnosed with major depressive disorder. I am very well acquainted with depression. No, you shouldn't encourage depression, and actually just today my case worker made me fill out a "safety plan" because my depression and anxiety has been so high over the past week. Having to live as a male for over 20 years has been a very major contributor of my depression. Believe me when I say it eats at me whenever I am counted as a male for statistical purposes, because that is not how it should be. I am taking steps to correct that.
I do not understand how you are relating depression to gender dysphoria. Telling someone like me to keep living as their birth sex is to encourage depressive behaviors, which often leads to destructive behaviors. You clearly do not have a very good understanding of gender dysphoria. You keep saying depression needs to be treated; I do not disagree. However, why should depression be treated but not gender dysphoria? No, you shouldn't encourage the problem. For those with gender dysphoria, encouraging the problem is telling them to carry on living as their birth sex.
I do not understand why you put such an emphasis on traits and characteristics. These do not equate to identity, though they can be a basis of it. You obviously do not identify as female. However, I do, and the characteristics and traits I display just happen to reinforce that identity. But you aren't even trying to understand or even consider how even something as simply as seeing myself as female (in clothing, hair, etc.) does wonders for my mood. You don't even seem to want to accept that people calling me miss seems as it should be, whereas being called sir stings.
I am in therapy in order to stop hating myself. My therapist has agreed that having my beard removed and developing a female voice are suitable actions to be taken. I will also soon be starting on an estrogen regiment. Apparently, you cannot fathom how excited that makes me.
And to say that "it's quite silly to say the brain has a gender" is to say scientific findings are silly, because male and female brains are shaped differently.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Replace the word male with numerous different terms and you have a description of depression. The therapy for depression does not involve encouraging the depressed delusions nor encouraging intense self-mutilation (or doctor aided mutilation. In fact, it's quite silly to say the brain has a gender. If you are a man (XY chromosomes, penis, testicles) and you have a "feminine" brain then obviously males can have brain be as such. As I said, I have vastly more feminine traits than masculine, yet I am not a woman. The only benefit to saying otherwise would be pity and self-importance, which are also counterproductive to treatment for depression in a lot of cases. If you hate yourself, there are drugs and therapy for that.
Ah, now we are treating people as statistics rather than an individual, and on top of encouraging gender stereotyping encouraging a statistical view where outliers from the mean are either outcast or, in this case, special to the point of being free from objective reality.

I am diagnosed with major depressive disorder. I am very well acquainted with depression. No, you shouldn't encourage depression, and actually just today my case worker made me fill out a "safety plan" because my depression and anxiety has been so high over the past week. Having to live as a male for over 20 years has been a very major contributor of my depression. Believe me when I say it eats at me whenever I am counted as a male for statistical purposes, because that is not how it should be. I am taking steps to correct that.
I do not understand how you are relating depression to gender dysphoria. Telling someone like me to keep living as their birth sex is to encourage depressive behaviors, which often leads to destructive behaviors. You clearly do not have a very good understanding of gender dysphoria. You keep saying depression needs to be treated; I do not disagree. However, why should depression be treated but not gender dysphoria? No, you shouldn't encourage the problem. For those with gender dysphoria, encouraging the problem is telling them to carry on living as their birth sex.
I do not understand why you put such an emphasis on traits and characteristics. These do not equate to identity, though they can be a basis of it. You obviously do not identify as female. However, I do, and the characteristics and traits I display just happen to reinforce that identity. But you aren't even trying to understand or even consider how even something as simply as seeing myself as female (in clothing, hair, etc.) does wonders for my mood. You don't even seem to want to accept that people calling me miss seems as it should be, whereas being called sir stings.
I am in therapy in order to stop hating myself. My therapist has agreed that having my beard removed and developing a female voice are suitable actions to be taken. I will also soon be starting on an estrogen regiment. Apparently, you cannot fathom how excited that makes me.
And to say that "it's quite silly to say the brain has a gender" is to say scientific findings are silly, because male and female brains are shaped differently.

 

[dust1n]

That's entirely different IMO.

Okay, that's fair enough.

 

[1137]

I am diagnosed with major depressive disorder. I am very well acquainted with depression. No, you shouldn't encourage depression, and actually just today my case worker made me fill out a "safety plan" because my depression and anxiety has been so high over the past week. Having to live as a male for over 20 years has been a very major contributor of my depression. Believe me when I say it eats at me whenever I am counted as a male for statistical purposes, because that is not how it should be. I am taking steps to correct that.

Well whoever your councilor is I would suggest one with your best interests at heart. Now, obviously there is division in psychology, and sure, Freud would say the problem is dick related. You wish you had one or can't handle it, whatever nonsense Freud would say. However, there seems to be much more evidence for Jung's perspective on individuation. Separating yourself in halves, hating one, and then giving into a fantastical and fictional self instead of dealing with it is not going to bring about a wholesome outcome. The goal should be an actual better self, not covering it up with drugs or falsehoods. Sure, those things can help, I myself need an anti-depressant to help out with my depression, but he point is I'm honest about what is wrong. Whoever you are working with has failed to inform you that self-hatred, even deep and intense self-hatred, and even of only specific things about yourself, is very common with depression.

I do not understand how you are relating depression to gender dysphoria. Telling someone like me to keep living as their birth sex is to encourage depressive behaviors, which often leads to destructive behaviors. You clearly do not have a very good understanding of gender dysphoria. You keep saying depression needs to be treated; I do not disagree. However, why should depression be treated but not gender dysphoria? No, you shouldn't encourage the problem. For those with gender dysphoria, encouraging the problem is telling them to carry on living as their birth sex.

You don't understand how self-hatred is an aspect of depression? As I said, your councilor / doctor is severely failing you. I'm not saying "live your birth sex", I'm saying living a lie is not a solution to self-hatred. No matter how much my mother wishes she were male, she's never going to get testicular cancer. Gender dysphoria should be treated, but for the hundreth time giving into delusion is not treatment. The way I see it is we should be going for a whole, self-satisfied individual in a Jungian perspective, which I for some reason actually thought you were already into. We have both "masculine" and "feminine" traits, and I am thouroughly against continuing to segregate men and women based on stereotypes. I honestly dont care how much you cry, how much you sweep the kitchen, how often you have mood swing, and other outrageous female stereotypes. Theyre just that - stereotypes.

I do not understand why you put such an emphasis on traits and characteristics. These do not equate to identity, though they can be a basis of it. You obviously do not identify as female. However, I do, and the characteristics and traits I display just happen to reinforce that identity. But you aren't even trying to understand or even consider how even something as simply as seeing myself as female (in clothing, hair, etc.) does wonders for my mood. You don't even seem to want to accept that people calling me miss seems as it should be, whereas being called sir stings.

Why put emphasis on traits and characteristics? I'm sorry but I'm finished here, I will not see people as empty statistics. People can identify as dragons or pixies or pirates - it does not make it true and it's actually less offensive since they are created as stereotypes in the first place. A handful of Vicodin does wonders for my mood too, but it doesn't actually fix anything.

I am in therapy in order to stop hating myself. My therapist has agreed that having my beard removed and developing a female voice are suitable actions to be taken. I will also soon be starting on an estrogen regiment. Apparently, you cannot fathom how excited that makes me.
And to say that "it's quite silly to say the brain has a gender" is to say scientific findings are silly, because male and female brains are shaped differently.

Well I'm sorry you are with one of the many therapists who simply believe in covering up problems. Good luck.

 

[1137]

Look at it this way. When a patient tells you they're addicted to vicodin, you don't say "ok, as long as it feels good and you have a genetic disposition to addiction". When someone like engaging in sexual intercourse with unconsenting women you do not say "ok, you are predisposed to sexual violence and it makes you feel better". When someone believes they hear voices in their head, you don't just leave them too it because it is a physically caused and probably predisposed condition. You wouldn't with depression, religious belief, warfare, etc. ad infinitum, So why with gender?

 

[oldbadger]

Well I'm sorry you are with one of the many therapists who simply believe in covering up problems. Good luck.

That's an interesting point.
The above shows that within the field of Psychology and Psychotherapy there is a large variation in opinion amongst the qualified, lettered, certificated and licensed professionals.

One of the problems amongst psychos seems to be how to establish a main-objective for their work in connection with each individual patient. For a psycho to have a fixed idea about treatment, therapy or remedy for a transexual simply means that every patient will be subjected to that psycho's pet theory.

If a transexual will lead a happier, more fulfilled, comfortable and confident life with one or another course of action then that might be seen by some as a 'cover up', but by others it will certainly be seen as a positive step to 'wellness'. In other words, psychology should be a supporting role rather than a treatment role.

It's not about cure and remedy............. It's about Wellness!

 

[Mister Emu]

Did you even bother to read what I posted? I'm guessing not.

Yes, I did. There was not a single scientifically rigorous critique and a whole lot of hand-wringing.

What "scientific peers"? Psychology is very questionable as a field of science.

Ah, the good old "if they don't agree with me, they aren't real scientists or doing real science" bit. Have fun with the young earth creationists in that sand-box.

She should dump that crap and become a psychiatrist instead.

You know so very little about the difference between a psychiatrist and psychologist.

No. I've that read in several books. It's not my own thoughts, but the words of others who have studied the subject.

Science is always open to new information, and this information isn't even new. Simply, you need credible reason to disregard the expert diagnosis of an internationally renowned specialist. You'd need to show that the methods used to differentiate between children going through a natural phase and children with gender dysphoria are insufficient.

There was on study, it's been awhile so ago so I don't remember the specifics, but there about half of the subjects, who are trans, had a certain trait, I think it was genetic.
No, it's not known exactly, but it does seem to be something that is internally hardwired. And the brain does, very most likely, play a tremendous role in it because the brain itself does have a gender.

I know of many studies on the biological factors that are a part of causing transgenderism. There was a twins study that showed a 36% concurrence between identical twins. This is, of course, a huge increase over fraternal twins or non-twin siblings.

Did you perhaps mistake my argument that transgenderism wasn't caused solely by biological factors for saying biological factors were insignificant? They just don't cover to totality of it.

Finally, it is rather a different thing to say that the brain has a gender and that hormones, generally present in set ranges that are different between genders, effect brain development such that the different genders tend to have different brains.

Most are intersexed.

What are the statistics on this? Genuinely curious.

The therapy for depression does not involve encouraging the depressed delusions nor encouraging intense self-mutilation (or doctor aided mutilation...The only benefit to saying otherwise would be pity and self-importance, which are also counterproductive to treatment for depression in a lot of cases. If you hate yourself, there are drugs and therapy for that.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Therapy is designed to ease the distress of the sufferer. Think back(or if you don't know, I'm introducing you to) the four D's of psychiatric disorder. Distress, dysfunction, danger, and deviance. We, clinical practitioners, are there to provide relief for those things. The only known relief for gender dysphoria in adults is found in physically therapeutic measures. Whether that is found in surface changes to present and live as the opposite gender or surgery in last resort.

Sufferers of gender dysphoria have not shown to be responsive to anti-depressant or anti-anxiety medications we currently produce. There are no drugs, currently, that reduce the dysphoria, we are limited in adults to altering the physical side.

 

[1137]

I would disagree that the goal should be ease of discomfort. I mean, why just tell someone what their problem is and set them in the corner? I think psychology certainly is - or should be - about healing and curing, at least where curing is possible. Sitting back and making someone comfortable is kind of a last resort.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Separating yourself in halves, hating one, and then giving into a fantastical and fictional self instead of dealing with it is not going to bring about a wholesome outcome.

There is no separating yourself in half. Covering the problem up is what I have done for many years. It doesn't work. The better self is to work towards doing away with the dysphoria, which, for me, involves a physical transition. I am being honest with what's wrong, and what is wrong is living as a male.
And you are making assumptions about what my therapist has told me about depression.

I honestly dont care how much you cry, how much you sweep the kitchen, how often you have mood swing, and other outrageous female stereotypes. Theyre just that - stereotypes.

There is much more to being a man or a woman than such things. You have persistently not acknowledged this.
You also seem that you may be implying gender dysphoria is caused by depression. This is not the case. Actually, there is a high comorbidity between gender dysphoria and Asperger's Syndrome.
You seem hell bent on trying to not understand gender dysphoria. A transition is not telling people to be depressed, it's not feeding vicodin to an addict, and it's not just a "feel good" thing. A physical transition has been shown to alleviate depression, reduce and end self-destructive behaviors, and improve quality of life.
I don't expect you to have done even a fourth of the research I have done into the subject, but I do expect more than persistent dismissal and refusal to listen. You do not have gender dysphoria, and rather than listen to and trying to understand those that do, you incessantly through out ideas that are completely and entirely unrelated.
.

 

[leibowde84]

So apparently I hold a "surprising" position in this, but I don't understand the recent transgender movements. In case one doesn't know, being transgender would essentially be like an individual who is physically/biologically a woman having "masculine" mental state and so considering themselves a male. See the problem? Transgender individuals buy right in and add to gender stereotyping by deciding they can't feel how they do as the sex they are. Women can have certain psychological mindsets because they're too masculine and vise versa.

Whether we are male or female is determined by physical and biological factors, which is the entire point of the definitions. Beyond that, gender equality says let people be who they are. Transgender movements, on the other hand, say men and women are only allowed to feel certain ways.

Thoughts?

Also, I understand transgender is kind of an umbrella term. I'm discussing men/women who are fully biologically / physically one sex and want go be another.

It is important to understand that those that you speak of are often born with a male body but a female brain. And, where did you get the idea that gender stereotyping is making distinctions between men and women? Gender stereotyping is when limitations are placed on certain genders, such as Women shouldn't be in the front lines because they aren't as strong as men. Gender identity is not stereotyping, as the individual is making a subjective choice, not a judgment on a group.

 

[Mister Emu]

I would disagree that the goal should be ease of discomfort. I mean, why just tell someone what their problem is and set them in the corner? I think psychology certainly is - or should be - about healing and curing, at least where curing is possible. Sitting back and making someone comfortable is kind of a last resort.

Psychologists don't treat people because they are different. We treat people because they have a difference that causes them to be dysfunctional, deviant, distressed or dangerous(being general terms). The goal is not to make people "normal", it is to help them live mentally healthy lives.

And yes, we do the best we can which is not perfect. I think most people in their right minds would agree if we could stop gender dysphoria that would be the best. But things like this and sexuality(and personality traits etc.) in adults have been shown to be resilient and resistant to therapy.

 

[Kerr]

You don't understand how self-hatred is an aspect of depression? As I said, your councilor / doctor is severely failing you. I'm not saying "live your birth sex", I'm saying living a lie is not a solution to self-hatred. No matter how much my mother wishes she were male, she's never going to get testicular cancer. Gender dysphoria should be treated, but for the hundreth time giving into delusion is not treatment. The way I see it is we should be going for a whole, self-satisfied individual in a Jungian perspective, which I for some reason actually thought you were already into. We have both "masculine" and "feminine" traits, and I am thouroughly against continuing to segregate men and women based on stereotypes. I honestly dont care how much you cry, how much you sweep the kitchen, how often you have mood swing, and other outrageous female stereotypes. Theyre just that - stereotypes.

If I understood Shadow Wolf correctly, she said it's not depression that causes gender dysphoria. Rather, it's the gender dysphoria that can cause depression. And since gender dysphoria is a separate problem from depression, it sould be treated on it's own.

And yes, those are stereotypes. That's not what gender dysporia is about. From what I understand, it has more to do with identity then anything else. Essentially, while I don't think sex matter that much, it's far from healthy to have a gender identity that doesn't match your sex.

 

[1137]

Day three. I guess people can pretend to be whatever they want, just don't hurt anyone else. I'll keep trying to help people solve their problems.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I suppose a good analogy, if you are looking for one, would be like trying to force me to live a neurotypical. I am far too introverted to enjoy large social gatherings over a quiet evening with a book or few friends, "overthinking" things is something I can't help but do, and I would feel very uneasy if I didn't examine the smaller parts of the whole. Trying to make me into a social butterfly would cause me to have a sever anxiety attack.

Day three. I guess people can pretend to be whatever they want, just don't hurt anyone else. I'll keep trying to help people solve their problems.

And you have said nothing that would help me solve mine.

I think most people in their right minds would agree if we could stop gender dysphoria that would be the best.

That is like saying it would be best if we could stop homosexuality. What would be best is to educate others of gender dysphoria, and work towards acceptance on transsexuals (as well as the others who fall under the transgender umbrella)

 

[1137]

I suppose a good analogy, if you are looking for one, would be like trying to force me to live a neurotypical. I am far too introverted to enjoy large social gatherings over a quiet evening with a book or few friends, "overthinking" things is something I can't help but do, and I would feel very uneasy if I didn't examine the smaller parts of the whole. Trying to make me into a social butterfly would cause me to have a sever anxiety attack.

Ok, let us run with your analogy. Part of who you are, for whatever reasons - genetic, physical issues in the brain, how one was raised, etc. - is one who overthinks. I get that, my insomnia is a direct result of a similar introverted and racing thought filled mind. This can be just fine and at least decently managed when we understand it. There are breathing techniques, medication if necessary, cognitive behavioral therapies, and so on, which can help individuals like us manage these things a bit better. The reality of the situation is that we are people who have hightened anxiety and such, and the treatment is to manage that. Your treatment would apparently be to stress out yourself as much as possible, embracing the problem as truth and ignoring the reality of the situation. Maybe it is just who you are, so why fight it? Maybe you dislike yourself and do it as a form of punishment? Maybe you think it is part of some greater purpose, that this is the way you are "supposed to be"? Doesn't matter, because in my opinion that is the exact wrong path to take.

That is like saying it would be best if we could stop homosexuality. What would be best is to educate others of gender dysphoria, and work towards acceptance on transsexuals (as well as the others who fall under the transgender umbrella)

Homosexuality is about sexual preference. Yes, there are reasonable explanations for why someone may be homosexual, from genetic disposition to simple personal preference. Being a homosexual does not, in any way, contradict the reality of a situation. Meanwhile, when it comes to sex, the reality of the situation is I have XY chromosomes with a penis and testicles. No matter how much I "choose" to be a woman I am still going to be a man. Whether I like men, women, or both it doesn't contradict reality in any way, unless I'm simply lying about my sexuality.