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Being "transgender" is a form of gender stereotyping.

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Your treatment would apparently be to stress out yourself as much as possible, embracing the problem as truth and ignoring the reality of the situation.
How is my treatment causing stress when it's alleviating stress?
There is no changing who I am. Because it causes harm to no one, or myself, why not embrace it?
The reality of the situation is is that for me life as a male is hollow, empty, void, and not worth living. However, being accepted as female gives me a reason to want to live. It is an acceptance in which I know I belong.

Maybe it is just who you are, so why fight it? Maybe you dislike yourself and do it as a form of punishment? Maybe you think it is part of some greater purpose, that this is the way you are "supposed to be"?
I have been fighting who I am. I have spent years trying to prove to myself I am male, while trying to ignore, bury, and purge feelings and thoughts that I should be female. It hasn't worked. Prayer has never worked. The more I struggle against myself, the worse my anxiety and depression get. Before I accepted myself, I use to go through periods of terrible insomnia and having no appetite. Though I still do have occasional bouts of insomnia, has not been nearly as bad and it has been a few years since I have had a total loss of appetite.
And you say all these "maybes" as if I haven't been saying why I am doing this.

Doesn't matter, because in my opinion that is the exact wrong path to take.

You say this, yet I have stated, numerous times, your opinion of what I should do is not, at all, good for my psychological well being. Your opinion is that I should ignore the accepted treatment of gender dysphoria, ignore the advice of my therapist, and ignore who I am.
How can it be the wrong path when other paths have only made the problem worse?
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Homosexuality is about sexual preference. Yes, there are reasonable explanations for why someone may be homosexual, from genetic disposition to simple personal preference. Being a homosexual does not, in any way, contradict the reality of a situation. Meanwhile, when it comes to sex, the reality of the situation is I have XY chromosomes with a penis and testicles. No matter how much I "choose" to be a woman I am still going to be a man. Whether I like men, women, or both it doesn't contradict reality in any way, unless I'm simply lying about my sexuality.
And if the reality is that this approach to gender dysphoria causes more harm then good? What if the only way to help them is to accept them for what they are? In what way would talking about how they are ignoring reality, not be ignoring reality?

I've pretended to be plenty of things before.
You think it's just about pretending? It's not. It's about fixing a mismatch between gender identity and physical sex.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
That is like saying it would be best if we could stop homosexuality.
It is not at all like that. There is a reason that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and is not treated by psychologists while gender dysphoria is a treated mental disorder. Which is not to say that:

to educate others of gender dysphoria, and work towards acceptance on transsexuals (as well as the others who fall under the transgender umbrella)

Is wrong or shouldn't be done. Just that it would be better for someone to never suffer gender dysphoria than to alleviate the suffering they have because of it.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
It is not at all like that. There is a reason that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and is not treated by psychologists while gender dysphoria is a treated mental disorder. Which is not to say that:



Is wrong or shouldn't be done. Just that it would be better for someone to never suffer gender dysphoria than to alleviate the suffering they have because of it.
Recent research does seem to indicate that gender dismorphia has a genetic basis. Apparently in some cases the brain is given different signals than the body at a crucial time in foetal defelopment.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Recent research does seem to indicate that gender dismorphia has a genetic basis. Apparently in some cases the brain is given different signals than the body at a crucial time in foetal defelopment.
Yes. It also almost certainly has a fetal womb conditions basis and a psycho-social developmental basis and you need all three to have gender dysphoria. This is, of course, for non-intersex co-morbid gender dysphoria.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Yes. It also almost certainly has a fetal womb conditions basis and a psycho-social developmental basis and you need all three to have gender dysphoria. This is, of course, for non-intersex co-morbid gender dysphoria.
Cheers. It was early days in the research. A long way before it is really understood.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@1137

I think you need to consider whether in seeking to treat or cure people you are necessarily trying to enforce conformity to a sense of reality. A good psychologist knows they don't have all the answers and must necessarily show some humility towards their patients. We are not born with innate ideas (such as over gender identity) and therefore by studying a patients thought patterns you can learn to see the world from their point of view. By getting a person to unravel the source of these ideas, they therefore unrepress the feelings which are associated with them. The task of treatment is to understand what ideas a person has developed which is contary to their well-being and to amend them so there are more in line with their own happiness and achieve an inner eqilbrium.

Trying to compell someone to accept 'reality' is not treatment but represents your own repressed hostility in that you have been compelled to live according to other people's rules and rather than deal with your own fears by conforting these authorities who have perscripted this "reality", you therefore feel that to ease your own discomfort to enforce that reality on others. Consider whether your own ideas regarding the innate nature of gender identity come from and I promise you, you will find yourself have a long inner discussion on your own past and how you yourself have reached a conclusion which is not only harmful to the people you are treating, but to yourself by denying your own spontaneous capacity for feeling, including empathy with your patients.

If you are currently practicing or studying to practice for psychology, you will come accross situations where someone uses an appeal to "good intentions" as a way to exercise authority over another person by denying them what they want. Speaking as someone who has been the victim of psychological abuse, good intentions do not redeem the harm that people can do to each other, but in recognising that the harm is done unconsciously and driven by fear it can be forgiven because you realise that what they do to you has been done to them. forgiveness in this sense is not nessecarily a weakness when it restores some inner balance. We can give ourselves permission to accept our hostility as a healthy response to a situation and re-discover our boundaries and sense of control over our lives which was violated by the abuser. Recovering from abuse means fundamentally challanging the distorted nature of what is "good" and learning to trust your own inner mechanisms rather than those standards of what is good that have been imposed upon you by others.

Psychology can be the attempt to enforce a measure of "good" in which mental illness is thought of as a dysfunction and therefore the "cure" is to eliminate this dysfunction so that a person conforms to the standards of their society. It can also be the search for the inner measures of good by promoting the happiness and inner well-being of a person. In trying to perscribe that a person is biologically determined to be male or female, consider the cultural diversity of the definitions of masculinity and feminity and how those concepts- such as masculinity as dominance and feminity as submission- are contary to the well-being of a person and perpetuate abusive sterotypes in rape culture, in which the victim is blamed for being 'weak' rather than the perpetrator because we implictly accept sadomasochistic conceptions of violence as strength even when it may necessarily conceal deep-seated feelings of inferiority, self-loathing and insecurity. In most cases, abuse takes place between people who know each other and untangling the genuine affection for the sentimental and idealised projection which conceals a person's fear and hostility is the hardest part of a therapists job.

Take a step back and consider whether in attacking your patient by forcing them to accept reality, you are infact blaming the victim for reminding you of your own feeling of insecurity. Sometimes if we are going to be part of the solution, it is necessarily to recognise that we are part of the problem. In an area as difficult as psychology, what is "normal" is not necessarily what is good for your patients as it was precisely the acceptance of a destructive normality which made them ill in the first place. Patients are not the only ones who project their own insecurities on to others and therapy involves projection in both directions. as a psychologist you have a responsibility not to enforce what you think is good, but to help th patient discover what they believe is good inorder to be free to be themselves and thereby overcome the inhibitions which made them ill in the first place. To do so, you need a very deep level of self-knowledge and that will give you the insight to see what a patient may be hiding from themselves.

Your welcome to say I am projecting (I am and will spend the rest of today thinking and processing what this reply tells me about my own boundaries and processing the guilt for expressing my own anger), but by blaming people who are transgender for not conforming to your standards of what is good because you think it is self-evident and irrifutable means you are showing the "red flag" since an idea or an authority that is beyond challange is one which is free to be unnacountable for the harm such perfectionist and compulsive stanards can do. Those who most want power over others are those least able to stand alone; they derive strength from the relative power of enforcing dependence on others whilst hiding from their own dependence on those who submit to them. You already know the answer to your question but want someone to help you overcome the guilt of asking it. it is ok to feel hostile towards transgender persons- but is that what you are really angry or frightened of?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Alright 7 pages is good for me. While I agree that changing sexes may be superior to doing nothing, that doesn't make it the right answer. It's a coverup, not a solution. I don't think psychology should be striving to just cover up problems, because even if it is better than nothing it is still not a solution. We should be striving to HELP people, not to lie to them.

Whether gender dysphoria has physical causes or not is irrelevant, as most mental disorders do. Chemical imbalances, trauma to the brain, genetics, these types of things may be present in gender disphoria, but they're are present in a very large portion of other mental disorder. Gender dysphoria is the only example of any of those disorders where you'd encourage one to give into their disorder rather than manage it, and the out come is exactly the same as if you treated other issues the same way.

Now, if a guy with gender dysphoria wants to be treated as a girl then fine. I call them she, treat them as such, it's no different than someone who wants to handle depression with therapy/meds or something like that. If it's only harming oneself then really there's nothing to do about it, people own their own bodies. However, I'm of the rare breed that still cares about people living the best possible life, and I hope that never changes because too few in psychology feel this way now.

We cannot ignore the damage of transgwnderism on gender equality though. Just because someone "feels" like a woman based on stereotypes and pure sexism does not actually make them a women. Men who cry in movies or are nurturing do not deserve to lose their penis, that is extremely primitive lines of thought. Nor do women who love sports or drinking beers earn a penis. Freud is the wrong path to follow, another lesson I wish wed learn already.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
You may not answer as "7 pages is enough", but...

It's a coverup, not a solution. I don't think psychology should be striving to just cover up problems, because even if it is better than nothing it is still not a solution. We should be striving to HELP people, not to lie to them.
What will you do when faced with issues you can't solve? That no one can.

Now, if a guy with gender dysphoria wants to be treated as a girl then fine. I call them she, treat them as such, it's no different than someone who wants to handle depression with therapy/meds or something like that.
How do you think depression should be handled, if not with therapy and medication?

Freud is the wrong path to follow, another lesson I wish wed learn already.
But we aren't using Freud... I can't think of a time I've heard anywhere in my education that we should follow Freud. The best that I can remember being said is that Freud was right that there is subconscious development that happens, but pretty much everything he thought about it was incorrect.

1137, how far are you into an education in psychology?
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
You may not answer as "7 pages is enough", but...


What will you do when faced with issues you can't solve? That no one can.

Then we do the best we can.

How do you think depression should be handled, if not with therapy and medication?

Well that's exactly the treatment I said we should use, but good job :).

but we aren't using Freud... I can't think of a time I've heard anywhere in my education that we should follow Freud. The best that I can remember being said is that Freud was right that there is subconscious development that happens, but pretty much everything he thought about it was incorrect.

You're lying to yourself if you don't think the system is Freudian based. Tell the patient what's wrong with them and shove them in the corner, that's Freud. A whole individual who's needs are met is Jung, Maslow, etc. For example, a female mind with male body causes dissonance, and the goal should not be further separating the two. Shadow Wolf is a man and she can't change that, and every time something like this is even unconsciously hinted at there will be pain due to "I am a man but wish I wasn't". Also, as a man thinking they're a woman, and individual can't complete more basic needs because they don't even accept the reality of their situation.

1137, how far are you into an education in psychology?

Masters level. I really want my doctorate but even here you bring up the same concerns I had as a philosophy major: higher education crushes outside the box thinking in place of conservatism.

The reality of the situation doesn't offend me.
However, you refusal to listen and your incessant assumptions do.

If no harm is caused by accepting you're a male then why are we having this talk in the first place? You're in denial.

How about you ask yourself, and consider, if those with gender dysphoria have any desires, at all, to live as their birth sex? How about you open your mind, instead of getting caught up on the idea that men who cry at a movie or women who enjoy sports and beer think that alone makes them transsexual.

Uh, you're the one who said you're not a man because you're too feminine, and my very OP was how such lines of thought are sexist gender stereotyping. You have decent (though unhealthy) defense mechanisms though! I don't have any desire to live in constant pain, but heroin isn't the answer. I often don't desire to continue fighting my depression, but suicide is not the answer. For, what, the millionth time? - you would accept this solution FOR any other mental disorder.

And where do you get the idea that we are following Freud? He is someone who has done damage to gender equality with his crackpot ideas such as penis envy and Oedipus complex.

You're the one who said you're so feminine your penis should be taken away. In fact, you said about your dysphoria :

I'm not pretending. Even many of those who know me, even before accepting myself, have seen many feminine traits and qualities in me. It's never been unusual at all for someone to express that I am not the typical guy, or they are surprised I like things that women are typically more drawn to.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
If no harm is caused by accepting you're a male then why are we having this talk in the first place? You're in denial.
I have stated, numerous times, that it has/is causing me a great deal of distress. I have also stated that taking steps towards transition has alleviated this distress.
You said you cannot understand what another is experiencing, but here you have been insisting that you understand what I am going through, but you have made it obvious that you do not. Like, claiming Darwin invented evolution type of obvious do not understand.
I have been tormented for nearly three decades. I can continue to be tormented, or I can continue on the path that has been easing those torments.

Uh, you're the one who said you're not a man because you're too feminine, and my very OP was how such lines of thought are sexist gender stereotyping.

I said that is a reason, but not the only reason. If someone transitions just because they have a few characteristics of the opposite sex, they are making a huge mistake and they will regret it.
For, what, the millionth time? - you would accept this solution FOR any other mental disorder.

Well, I do support using a gradually reduced dose of heroine to ween addicts off the drug. I support therapy to treat any disorder, and drug therapy for some. Above all else, I support improving the mental well being of a patient. Transitioning to the opposite sex has been shown to do just this in those with gender dysphoria.
However, you seem to be caught up on this idea that transitioning is roughly equivalent to telling someone with schizophrenia to do what the voices tell them to do, or telling someone with bipolar disorder to go ahead and have self-destructive episodes of mania and potentially violent bursts of depression. But a transition is not encouraging self-destructive behaviors, or encouraging a treatment that makes the condition worse.
As for me, just seeing myself as female allows me to be able to stand to look at myself in the mirror.

You're the one who said you're so feminine your penis should be taken away. In fact, you said about your dysphoria :
Actually I said I have that some feminine characteristics have always come naturally to me, but I am not a "girly girl." Never have I implied, or suggested, that just because of some feminine characteristics I should transition. I have actually stated those reasons alone are not any indication of gender dysphoria.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Also, as a man thinking they're a woman, and individual can't complete more basic needs because they don't even accept the reality of their situation.
The improvements I've made so far might just surprise you. As for basic needs, as I've already said my insomnia has not been nearly as bad, and I haven't lost my appetite in a long time. I've also not had any suicidal thoughts in a long time. As for more than basic needs, I went back to school and completed a four year degree, and I have plans for the future now rather than just idly drift through life.
You really do need to consider your own words in that you do not understand what others are experiencing.
You are the one lying to yourself in thinking I am going down a path of destruction that is making me worse, especially when I have been stating this path has been making me better off. You keep insisting that I am going down a path that is "splitting myself in two," but that is exactly what I have been doing that has been causing problems.
You very clearly do not understand what I am going through, how it has effected me in the past, and how it is effecting me now. You only make yourself look like an *** by insisting that I am experiencing things that I am not, and putting reasons in my mouth that I have not given.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I have stated, numerous times, that it has/is causing me a great deal of distress. I have also stated that taking steps towards transition has alleviated this distress.
You said you cannot understand what another is experiencing, but here you have been insisting that you understand what I am going through, but you have made it obvious that you do not. Like, claiming Darwin invented evolution type of obvious do not understand.
I have been tormented for nearly three decades. I can continue to be tormented, or I can continue on the path that has been easing those torments.


I said that is a reason, but not the only reason. If someone transitions just because they have a few characteristics of the opposite sex, they are making a huge mistake and they will regret it.

Well, I do support using a gradually reduced dose of heroine to ween addicts off the drug. I support therapy to treat any disorder, and drug therapy for some. Above all else, I support improving the mental well being of a patient. Transitioning to the opposite sex has been shown to do just this in those with gender dysphoria.
However, you seem to be caught up on this idea that transitioning is roughly equivalent to telling someone with schizophrenia to do what the voices tell them to do, or telling someone with bipolar disorder to go ahead and have self-destructive episodes of mania and potentially violent bursts of depression. But a transition is not encouraging self-destructive behaviors, or encouraging a treatment that makes the condition worse.
As for me, just seeing myself as female allows me to be able to stand to look at myself in the mirror.


Actually I said I have that some feminine characteristics have always come naturally to me, but I am not a "girly girl." Never have I implied, or suggested, that just because of some feminine characteristics I should transition. I have actually stated those reasons alone are not any indication of gender dysphoria.
It's worth noting that people are generally expert on at least one thing....what their own thoughts are. Provided that one is sane & able to face one's thoughts & feelings, no one is more qualified to describe them. Given that there are significant numbers of people in the same circumstances, to claim that something else is at work should require strong evidence. Lacking that, the condition of "transgender" it is what it is, ie, as you & others describe it.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It's worth noting that people are generally expert on at least one thing....what their own thoughts are. Provided that one is sane & able to face one's thoughts & feelings, no one is more qualified to describe them. Given that there are significant numbers of people in the same circumstances, to claim that something else is at work should require strong evidence. Lacking that, the condition of "transgender" it is what it is, ie, as you & others describe it.
I am confident that I have done far more extensive research on the topic, both in the form of taking in the accounts of other transsexuals as well as what doctors (psychologists, psychiatrists, medical) have written about it. I've taken in information from "cheerleaders" (a term we use to describe those who are too encouraging to jump in head first), from those who regret it, from NARTH and the FRC, from various trans advocacy groups, supporters and rad-fems (who largely and mostly opposed to transsexuals based on grounds of biological determination; a position that is extremely complicated and difficult to defend), and a book from a psychologist who seemed like she was trying to do nothing more than gratify the trans community.
There may not be a strong reason for the cause, in the sense that we know what causes an electrical static charge, but the evidence does very strongly point to a biological reason that is beyond anyone's control.
There is also evidence of how effective treatment is, which consistently shows that a physical transition improves the well being and quality of life for transsexuals. This is in spite of the fact we deal with very heavy discrimination. Even though you will hear a transsexual mention isolation, being mocked and ridiculed, losing family and friends, and having a harder time, you'll also, very frequently, hear the same person say something that amounts to "I'm the happiest I've ever been," and "I'm enjoying life now."
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
The improvements I've made so far might just surprise you. As for basic needs, as I've already said my insomnia has not been nearly as bad, and I haven't lost my appetite in a long time. I've also not had any suicidal thoughts in a long time. As for more than basic needs, I went back to school and completed a four year degree, and I have plans for the future now rather than just idly drift through life.
You really do need to consider your own words in that you do not understand what others are experiencing.
You are the one lying to yourself in thinking I am going down a path of destruction that is making me worse, especially when I have been stating this path has been making me better off. You keep insisting that I am going down a path that is "splitting myself in two," but that is exactly what I have been doing that has been causing problems.
You very clearly do not understand what I am going through, how it has effected me in the past, and how it is effecting me now. You only make yourself look like an *** by insisting that I am experiencing things that I am not, and putting reasons in my mouth that I have not given.

Uh, actually I was quoting you, not putting words into your mouth. Massive difference. I think ignoring dysphoria is the destructive path actually, because there is no relief. I think giving in may help as with all mental issues, but it helps for the wrong reasons and causes dissonance. I think facing reality and managing it is the superior path. Like I said, I can call you "she" and all that, and that's better than you suffering in misery. It's also a complete and utter liem
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
I am confident that I have done far more extensive research on the topic, both in the form of taking in the accounts of other transsexuals as well as what doctors (psychologists, psychiatrists, medical) have written about it. I've taken in information from "cheerleaders" (a term we use to describe those who are too encouraging to jump in head first), from those who regret it, from NARTH and the FRC, from various trans advocacy groups, supporters and rad-fems (who largely and mostly opposed to transsexuals based on grounds of biological determination; a position that is extremely complicated and difficult to defend), and a book from a psychologist who seemed like she was trying to do nothing more than gratify the trans community.
There may not be a strong reason for the cause, in the sense that we know what causes an electrical static charge, but the evidence does very strongly point to a biological reason that is beyond anyone's control.
There is also evidence of how effective treatment is, which consistently shows that a physical transition improves the well being and quality of life for transsexuals. This is in spite of the fact we deal with very heavy discrimination. Even though you will hear a transsexual mention isolation, being mocked and ridiculed, losing family and friends, and having a harder time, you'll also, very frequently, hear the same person say something that amounts to "I'm the happiest I've ever been," and "I'm enjoying life now."

And all I'm saying is people like me are working to raise the happiest you've ever been. So maybe lower those defense mechanisms.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
And all I'm saying is people like me are working to raise the happiest you've ever been. So maybe lower those defense mechanisms.
You are the one who has refereed to me as a man, saying I am pretending, enforcing gender stereotypes, and several pages of other things that have strongly implied my happiness is not really happiness but a delusion.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
BTW, if you want to see a Freudian approach, check out NARTH. Of course their head guy got caught with a male prostitute some years ago, which just goes to show how effective their approach is, but it is still strongly Freudian based.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
You are the one who has refereed to me as a man, saying I am pretending, enforcing gender stereotypes, and several pages of other things that have strongly implied my happiness is not really happiness but a delusion.

This is not an every day situation, this is about a very specific topic where your actual sex matters. Anywhere else you're a female to me and I'm happy you're living a progressively better life. Here I'm telling you more can be done.
 
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