Being "transgender" is a form of gender stereotyping.

[1137]

Interesting. Today I learned that the majority of individuals who experience gender dysphoria and have plastic surgery feel worse after the surgery. This means people in this thread claiming to be credible sources have been blatantly lying.

Comer, R.J. (2014). Fundamentals of Abnormal Psychology (7th Edition). New York: Worth.

 

[dust1n]

Interesting. Today I learned that the majority of individuals who experience gender dysphoria and have plastic surgery feel worse after the surgery. This means people in this thread claiming to be credible sources have been blatantly lying.

Comer, R.J. (2014). Fundamentals of Abnormal Psychology (7th Edition). New York: Worth.

Well, it would only be blatantly lying if they had also read the same material you are referencing.

By the way, would it be too much to an actual quote from the book, or a page number, as opposed to, you know, the entire textbook?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Interesting. Today I learned that the majority of individuals who experience gender dysphoria and have plastic surgery feel worse after the surgery. This means people in this thread claiming to be credible sources have been blatantly lying.

Comer, R.J. (2014). Fundamentals of Abnormal Psychology (7th Edition). New York: Worth.

I have far more experience with the transcommunity than you do. From my experience, regret is rare, but the amount of people who refuse to have anything to do with psychology surverys, or psychology at all except what they have to for transition, are far more numerous.
And it's not unusual for anyone who has plastic surgery to feel worse after it.
And I have had psych text books that have claimed church attendance is important for healthy psychological development, Chris Benoit experienced roid rage when he killed himself and his family, and cases of child sexual abuse shouldn't be considered abuse.

 

[1137]

Well, it would only be blatantly lying if they had also read the same material you are referencing.

By the way, would it be too much to an actual quote from the book, or a page number, as opposed to, you know, the entire textbook?

Comer, 2014, pg. 134

As many as half of people with the disorder (gender dysphoria) seek plastic surgery or dermatology treatment, and often they feel worse rather than better afterwards. A large number are housebound, and more than 10% may attempt suicide.

 

[1137]

I have far more experience with the transcommunity than you do. From my experience, regret is rare, but the amount of people who refuse to have anything to do with psychology surverys, or psychology at all except what they have to for transition, are far more numerous.
And it's not unusual for anyone who has plastic surgery to feel worse after it.
And I have had psych text books that have claimed church attendance is important for healthy psychological development, Chris Benoit experienced roid rage when he killed himself and his family, and cases of child sexual abuse shouldn't be considered abuse.

Well we all know personal experience beats statistical analysis any day!

My god, you volunteered to speak on the radio for Luciferianism...

 

[dust1n]

Comer, 2014, pg. 134

Thanks. Now I can look into it later.

 

[1137]

Thanks. Now I can look into it later.

If you discredit it I'd love to pass it on.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well we all know personal experience beats statistical analysis any day!

Sometimes it does. Some time ago there was a study that claimed things like Satanism and other LHP religions/philosophies don't appeal to women, and it's very much a male thing. They many female LHP members we used to have, all disagreed with it. According to some academic studies, heavy metal is largely and mostly a male thing, and that it's really only men who play and listen to metal. However one of the earliest metal bands had a female singer, there are a ton of female metal artists, several all female metal bands, and even a ton of female metal fans. One "study" even tried to say metalheads are generally not very intelligent or well educated, yet their are legions of highly educated and very intelligent metalheads. There is even another study that directly contradicts that study: this study shows there is a disproportionately higher amount of metalheads among the "gifted" than there are among the general population.
And, your study I am very sure does not mention that many transsexuals will not have anything to do with psychological studies into gender dysphoria. They simply are not interested in being poked and prodded at like an object or laboratory specimen. Many transsexuals are very untrusting of psychology, and many hold a scathing hatred of it. Many only tolerate going to therapy because they have to in order to transition.

 

[1137]

Sometimes it does. Some time ago there was a study that claimed things like Satanism and other LHP religions/philosophies don't appeal to women, and it's very much a male thing. They many female LHP members we used to have, all disagreed with it. According to some academic studies, heavy metal is largely and mostly a male thing, and that it's really only men who play and listen to metal. However one of the earliest metal bands had a female singer, there are a ton of female metal artists, several all female metal bands, and even a ton of female metal fans. One "study" even tried to say metalheads are generally not very intelligent or well educated, yet their are legions of highly educated and very intelligent metalheads. There is even another study that directly contradicts that study: this study shows there is a disproportionately higher amount of metalheads among the "gifted" than there are among the general population.
And, your study I am very sure does not mention that many transsexuals will not have anything to do with psychological studies into gender dysphoria. They simply are not interested in being poked and prodded at like an object or laboratory specimen. Many transsexuals are very untrusting of psychology, and many hold a scathing hatred of it. Many only tolerate going to therapy because they have to in order to transition.

So we agree that generalization is bad, like "changing one's gender helps with dysphoria".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So we agree that generalization is bad, like "changing one's gender helps with dysphoria".

Saying that is like saying it's bad to generalize that anti-biotics help people get over numerous illnesses.

 

[1137]

Saying that is like saying it's bad to generalize that anti-biotics help people get over numerous illnesses.

So help the ones it will help and **** all the rest. Got it.

 

[dust1n]

If you discredit it I'd love to pass it on.

Mine says 210 in the book, 239 on the PDF.
http://keychests.com/media/bigdisk/pdfold/1544.pdf


"As many as half of people with the disorder (gender dysphoria) seek plastic surgery or dermatology treatment, and often they feel worse rather than better afterwards. A large number are housebound, and more than 10% may attempt suicide."

I can't "discredit" the study, because I simply don't have access to the two studies that are used as reference.

"As many as half of people... dermatology treatment"

Is stating that half to the people with gender dysmorphia will seek out plastic surgery or dermatology treatment. As far as I know, there's nothing here that leads to me believe that any sort of sex reassignment is being considered or included. Not that that means that it wasn't. I just have no idea what qualifies as plastic surgery or dermatology treatment for the purposes of the study, because, well, it wasn't qualified. Of those half of people, "often they feel worse rather than better." I mean, it would just be nice to know actually what that means, and how the conclusion was drawn. Unfortunately I can't find the abstract to either: (McKay et al., 2008) or (Miller, 2005).

So, I don't know if they are even talking about sex reassignment. And if they were, I'm not even sure what they are saying. An analogous statement might be, "frequently Americans eat hamburger rather than hotdogs." Yeah, ok, but how many? How frequently? Why is it so? Etc.

Not to mention, in the paragraph before, this is all that's brought up: "People who experience body dysmorphic disorder, also known as dysmorphophobia, become deeply concerned about some imagined or minor defect in their appearance (see again Table 7-2). Most often they focus on wrinkles; spots on the skin; excessive facial hair; swelling of the face; or a misshapen nose, mouth, jaw, or eyebrow (McKay, Gosselin, & Gupta, 2008; Shapiro & Gavin, 2006; Veale, 2004). Some worry about the appearance of their feet, hands, breasts, penis, or other body parts (see Eye on Culture on page 212). Still others are concerned about bad odors coming from sweat, breath, genitals, or the rectum (Phillips & Castle, 2002)."

So, I probably failed at discrediting the study itself, since I can't really see where the thing to discredit is. But, I think for the most part I can rest somewhat assured that anyone here might be maliciously misrepresenting the truth about, I guess their own happiness and what it means to them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not to mention, in the paragraph before, this is all that's brought up: "People who experience body dysmorphic disorder, also known as dysmorphophobia, become deeply concerned about some imag-ined or minor defect in their appearance (see again Table 7-2). Most often they focus on wrinkles; spots on the skin; excessive facial hair; swelling of the face; or a misshapen nose, mouth, jaw, or eyebrow (McKay, Gosselin, & Gupta, 2008; Shapiro & Gavin, 2006; Veale, 2004). Some worry about the appearance of their feet, hands, breasts, penis, or other body parts (see Eye on Culture on page 212). Still others are concerned about bad odors coming from sweat, breath, genitals, or the rectum (Phillips & Castle, 2002)."

Gender dysphoria is not a body dysmorphic disorder, so it would be interesting to see why they even brought it up in the first place.
But, in regards to body dysmorphic disorder, their attempts usually do make things worse.
As for gender dysphoria, some do regret it. But, in my experience (which in this case probably is far better than statistical analysis because many transsexuals do not want to get caught up in having their lives poked and prodded at - they'd rather just get on with their lives), very few actually do regret it.
My personal experience also lets me know that sometimes even surgeons receive a wedding invitations to transsexual patients they have treated, because without the surgeon, that person getting married wouldn't have achieved such a level happiness and satisfaction from life.
But, then of course, the social sciences are prone to misunderstanding groups when no one is actually a part of that group. And it isn't unusual for various groups to be distrusting of social scientists.

 

[dust1n]

Gender dysphoria is not a body dysmorphic disorder, so it would be interesting to see why they even brought it up in the first place.

I honestly wouldn't know. I'm not sure what differentiates a gender and a body, or a mind and a body, for that matter.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I honestly wouldn't know. I'm not sure what differentiates a gender and a body, or a mind and a body, for that matter.

I have to admit, it's been awhile since I've read up on body dysmorphic disorders, so I'm not highly knowledgeable of it, but it typically comes with a high rate of comorbidity with other disorders, and typically, according to research, their attempts to modify their body does make things worse (I have no experience with people who have that disorder, so I don't know their attitudes regarding psychology and psychologists). Some psychs do consider gender dysphoria a body dysmorphic disorder, but they are of a minority of psychs and gender dysphoria does not follow the patterns of body dysmorphic disorder.
With gender dysphoria, it's not an issue with a particular area of your body, or body odor, or anything like that, but having an internal identity that does not match the sex of the body you was born with. Typically transsexuals show psychological improvement as they move along with their transition. And many transsexuals aren't particularly in broadcasting their lives to the world, or disclosing it to someone gathering data for a study, as they wish to simply get on with their lives. Of course many will take the time to explain, if you ask, and would rather you ask than make foolish assumptions, but we tend to not identify with the "trans" part unless it is relevant.

 

[1137]

It also states that 10% of people with gender dysphoria who go through sex changes become suicidal. 10% might be ok for @Shadow Wolf but it's waaaay too high for me.

 

[dust1n]

I have to admit, it's been awhile since I've read up on body dysmorphic disorders, so I'm not highly knowledgeable of it, but it typically comes with a high rate of comorbidity with other disorders, and typically, according to research, their attempts to modify their body does make things worse (I have no experience with people who have that disorder, so I don't know their attitudes regarding psychology and psychologists). Some psychs do consider gender dysphoria a body dysmorphic disorder, but they are of a minority of psychs and gender dysphoria does not follow the patterns of body dysmorphic disorder.
With gender dysphoria, it's not an issue with a particular area of your body, or body odor, or anything like that, but having an internal identity that does not match the sex of the body you was born with. Typically transsexuals show psychological improvement as they move along with their transition. And many transsexuals aren't particularly in broadcasting their lives to the world, or disclosing it to someone gathering data for a study, as they wish to simply get on with their lives. Of course many will take the time to explain, if you ask, and would rather you ask than make foolish assumptions, but we tend to not identify with the "trans" part unless it is relevant.

This is what the book actually says about it... well skipping all the introductory stuff, here's the controversy, here's side 1, here's side 2, etc.

"Various theories have been proposed to explain gender identity disorder (Carroll, 2007;
Gehring & Knudson, 2005; Doctor & Neff, 2001), but research to test these views has
been limited and generally weak. Many clinicians suspect that biological—perhaps
genetic or prenatal—factors play a key role in the disorder (Henningsson et al., 2005;
Bailey, 2003).

Consistent with a genetic explanation is evidence that the disorder sometimes runs
in families (Green, 2000). In addition, one biological study has received considerable at-
tention (Zhou et al., 1997, 1995). Dutch investigators autopsied the brains of six people
who had changed their sex from male to female. They found that a cluster of cells in the
hypothalamus called the bed nucleus of stria terminalis (BST) was only half as
large in these people as it was in a control group of “normal” men. Usually, a woman’s BST is much
smaller than a man’s, so in effect the men with gender identity disorder were found to
have a female-sized BST. Recent studies tell a similar story (Swaab, 2005). Scientists do
not know for certain what the BST does in humans, but they know that it helps regulate
sexual behavior in male rats. Although other interpretations are possible, it may be that
men who develop gender identity disorder have a key biological difference that leaves
them very uncomfortable with their assigned sex characteristics...

Types of Treatment for Gender Identity Disorder

Many people with gender

identity disorder receive psychotherapy (Affatati et al., 2004); however, controlled stud-
ies indicate that most adults with the disorder do not come to accept completely their
birth gender through psychological treatment (Carroll, 2007). Thus, a large number of
individuals seek to address their concerns and conflicts through biological interventions (see The Media Speaks
on the next page). For example, many adults with this disorder change their sexual characteristics by means of
hormone treatments (Andreasen & Black, 2006; Hepp et al., 2002). Physicians prescribe the female sex hormone
estrogen for male patients, causing breast development, loss of body and facial hair, and change in body fat distribution. Similar treatments with the male sex hormone testosterone are given to women with gender identity disorder.

Hormone therapy and psychotherapy enable many persons with this disorder to
lead a satisfactory existence in the gender role that they believe represents their true
identity. For others, however, this is not enough, and their dissatisfaction leads them to
undergo one of the most controversial practices in medicine:sex-change, or
sexual reassignment, surgery (Andreasen & Black, 2006; Hepp et al., 2002). This surgery
is preceded by one to two years of hormone therapy. The operation itself involves, for
men, amputation of the penis, creation of an artificial vagina, and face-changing plastic
surgery. For women, surgery may include bilateral mastectomy and hysterectomy. The
procedure for creating a functioning penis, called phalloplasty, is performed in some
cases, but it is not yet perfected (Doctor & Neff, 2001). Doctors have, however, devel-
oped a silicone prosthesis that gives the patient the appearance of having male genitals.
Studies in Europe suggest that 1 of every 30,000 men and 1 of every 100,000 women
seek sex-change surgery (Carroll, 2007; Bakker et al., 1993). In the United States, more
than 6,000 persons are estimated to have undergone this surgical procedure (Doctor &
Neff, 2001).

Clinicians have debated heatedly whether sexual reassignment is an appropriate
treatment for gender identity disorder. Some consider it a humane solution, perhaps
the most satisfying one to people with the pattern. Others argue that sexual reassign-
ment is a “drastic nonsolution” for a complex disorder. Either way, sexual reassignment
surgery appears to be on the increase (Olsson & Moller, 2003).

Research into the outcomes of gender reassign-
ment surgery points in favorable directions, although
generally most such research has significant meth-
odological flaws (Carroll, 2007). According to these
investigations, the majority of patients—both female
and male—state satisfaction with the outcome of
the surgery and report subsequent improvements in
the social, psychological, and occupational spheres
of their lives, particularly improvements in self-
satisfaction and interpersonal interactions (Michel
et al., 2002). Improvements in sexual functioning
after surgery, however, are often lacking (Schroder &
Carroll, 1999).

The rate of “poor” sexual reassignment out-
comes appears to be at least 8 percent (Carroll, 2007;
Abramowitz, 1986). Female-to-male patients con-
sistently show the most favorable psychosocial out-
comes. Those who display the autogynephilic type
of gender dysphoria (that is, those whose problems
seem to evolve from transvestic fetishism) are more
likely than those with the other types of gender dysphoria to regret sexual reassign-
ment surgery and to have poor outcomes. Finally, patients with serious pretreatment
psychological disturbances (for example, a personality disorder) are particularly likely
to regret the surgery and are more likely than others to later attempt suicide. All of this
argues for careful screening prior to proceeding on to this treatment approach and, of
course, for continued research to better understand both the patterns themselves and
the long-term impact of the surgical procedure.

Our gender is so basic to our sense of identity that it is hard for most of you to
imagine wanting to change it, much less to imagine the feelings of conflict and stress
experienced by those who question their assigned gender. Whether the underlying
cause is biological, psychological, or sociocultural, gender identity disorder is a dramatic
problem that often shakes the foundations of the sufferer’s existence."

I think somewhere around 474 it starts. And no, there is no way I'm going to try to fix the formatting of this.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It also states that 10% of people with gender dysphoria who go through sex changes become suicidal. 10% might be ok for @Shadow Wolf but it's waaaay too high for me.

Not once have I ever claimed no one regrets it. But 10 do, while 90% don't. But depression, and suicidal thoughts and tendencies, are very common in people with gender dysphoria before transition.
And, does it say why they become suicidal? Is it because transitioning made them suicidal? Or is it because society tends to be rather nasty and hateful towards transsexuals? Or could it be other problems, such as major depression and anxiety?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Physicians prescribe the female sex hormone
estrogen for male patients, causing breast development, loss of body and facial hair, and change in body fat distribution. Similar treatments with the male sex hormone testosterone are given to women with gender identity disorder.

I do have to correct this: estrogen does not cause a loss of facial hair. MtF transsexuals must undergo hair removal procedures, such as electrolysis, to remove facial hair.

The operation itself involves, for
men, amputation of the penis, creation of an artificial vagina, and face-changing plastic
surgery.

The penis is not amputated (the glans especially is not severed, as it is reshaped into the clitoris, and unless the surgery is botched the clitoris, and vagina, does have feeling and orgasms are possible). Rather, it, along with the scrotum, is reshaped into a vagina. A part of the shaft is removed, in order to remove the erectile sponge material, and the male genitals are inverted. The technique is actually called "penile inversion."

Female-to-male patients con-
sistently show the most favorable psychosocial out-
comes.

This is likely due to FtM transsexuals generally passing much better than MtF.

Those who display the autogynephilic type
of gender dysphoria (that is, those whose problems
seem to evolve from transvestic fetishism) are more
likely than those with the other types of gender dysphoria to regret sexual reassign-
ment surgery and to have poor outcomes.

All of this
argues for careful screening prior to proceeding on to this treatment approach and, of
course, for continued research to better understand both the patterns themselves and
the long-term impact of the surgical procedure.

With these last two, the standards of care are in place as a means to try to prevent people who shouldn't undergo a transition, such as those who are autogenyphilics, from being able to transition. Of course it isn't full proof, but at the minimum you need months of therapy before you can begin hormones, and at least a year on hormones, with on going therapy, before you can have genital surgery. Surgery also requires two letters of recommendation from clinicians who work with patients with gender dysphoria. Hormone therapy as well requires a letter of recommendation. It is not, at all, possible to just show up to a psychiatrist, say you want to transition, and begin a transition.

 

[1137]

As I said, 10% is too high. Not sure how you sleep at night, but I should have left the thread dead anyways.