ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
You appear to be projecting.
So you don't believe in God?Oh .. and by the way .. there aren't any non-fictional gods
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Believers and Disbelievers
- Thread starter FearGod
- Start date
SpeaksForTheTrees
Well-Known Member
Hinduism only real surviving example in 2016 you know game been running a while lol .
Moksha is a concept of one , in Hinduism although Hindus can have many gods if they choose although the concept of moksha remains , soft porn is acceptable ..
The Greek gods ( personally have a soft spot for Ceres the roman ,Venus bit of a ho ,,anyhow
Can connect Hinduism to the beliefs of our European ancestors ..??
Hindus may indeed choose god (1) as a manifestation of hinduism by converting to Sikh but they are still Hindus yes ? By the rules of hinduism religious divide on belief should not exist God has many form however Moksha is one .?
Sikhs connect christian connect Islam connect Jewish to one ?
Not saying Greeks must turn Sikhs but the freedom of liberty of thought can be applied to our ancestors gods to again connect them back to one ?.
Maybe some ancient lines of thought simply failed to achieve Moksha ?
http://data.whicdn.com/images/205925874/large.jpg
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Paleo
Primitivism and chill
So your god is fictional?Good luck to you .. what I say seems to be going in one ear and out the other..
Oh .. and by the way .. there aren't any non-fictional gods
Which god is real and which one is made up? Allah or the Christian god? http://billygraham.org/decision-mag...-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god/
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
They're the same, both names being derived from the name for a God used in ancient Sumer-- "El"-- which morphed into "Eloheim" and "Allah".
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Yes .. the southern baptists/evangelists..
The author of your ref. says "The God of the Bible is not Allah, and Allah is not the God of the Bible. Any confusion about that undermines the very Gospel we preach."
I'm sure many Muslims will say the same thing. I don't agree. Almighty God is not a personal god. He doesn't 'belong' to anybody.
Mankind splits their faith into sects, each sect rejoicing in its tenets .. in this case, these evangelists are claiming 'our god has a son so your god is not our god' .. Almighty God knows what they are hiding..
In reality, it makes no difference .. Almighty God does not belong to any particular sect .. He is the Creator of the universe and all it contains .. He created Muslims as well as Christains .. He created EVERYBODY!
JustWondering
Jerk
The lack of any evidence or even a good supporting argument highly suggests both god concepts are made up.
McBell
Unbound
Why the need of yours to make it personal?
The fact of the matter is that the Koran has undergone several changes.
claiming it has not is nothing ore than wishful thinking.
Or ignorance.
Though to be honest, I cannot help but wonder how many Muslims do not know the history of the Koran....
I mean to make the blatantly false claim that the Koran has never been changed....
The Emperor of Mankind
Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
I love watching monotheists tell people like me my gods are false - but they can't explain why or how they've arrived at that conclusion.
And it's a pretty safe bet they've made literally no effort for themselves in discovering if these gods exist or not; they just trust a book allegedly written by a seventh century barbarian warlord.
And it's a pretty safe bet they've made literally no effort for themselves in discovering if these gods exist or not; they just trust a book allegedly written by a seventh century barbarian warlord.
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muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
I think you'll find that Muslims refer to the meaning of the Qur'an when they claim that..
You certainly can't prove that the meaning has changed .. you can assume it .. that's all!
But if anybody thinks that the meaning has been changed, which verses exactly would they be, and why?
People who suggest that it's changed think that Muhammad, peace be with him, has conspired to copy the Bible etc. .. did he make a mistake? Did somebody have to help him by changing it?
McBell
Unbound
I think you will find that I am talking about those who claim the Koran has not changed.I think you'll find that Muslims refer to the meaning of the Qur'an when they claim that..
You certainly can't prove that the meaning has changed .. you can assume it .. that's all!
But if anybody thinks that the meaning has been changed, which verses exactly would they be, and why?
People who suggest that it's changed think that Muhammad, peace be with him, has conspired to copy the Bible etc. .. did he make a mistake? Did somebody have to help him by changing it?
However, your straw goal posts are amusing.
In the Bible God clearly states that he has a son. The Qu'ran clearly states that Allah doesn't have a son. Either the Bible or the Qu'ran must be wrong even though they're supposed to be from the same god and perfect...?
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
Christians believe in a god that sacrificed his only son for them. Allah did no such thing.
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mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
Yes Muslim rejects any criticism of the Koran and Mohammed
He lives in a stone dome closed
If the shock break your head
Islam is a big problem should be addressed intellectually
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
Do you want to prove the Koran, the Hindu book ???
Is Hinduism declares Mohammad a messenger and prophet ??
Rajina
Member
Most of this is a repetition of what I have posted earlier in this thread. I am repeating this for Midnight Rain.
But Qur'an was not revealed In a written form. It was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(ص), who was an illeterate, in a period of 23 years at various situations. In many cases the verses revealed were connected to the situation in which it was revealed. Sometimes it used to be related any event which just occured at the time. This shows that it was not preplanned.
The shortest chapter in Quran contains only three verses. So to meet this challenge, all you have to do is just bring three sentences in Arabic similar to the Qur'an.
Here is a link to an article about the challenge of Qur'an:
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays...bility-of-the-shortest-chapter-in-the-qur’an/
Here, the peculiarity of Qur'an is that, even if we intentionally edit all the copies of Qur'an, or if we destroy all of them, there are millions who have memorized it. They can rewrite it, in its original language, without even a difference in spelling. Is there any such book in the world, other than Qur'an?
1. Barrier between sees
"He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses." Qur'an(55: 19-20)
2. Honey is formed inside the belly of honey bees.
"And your Lord inspired to the bee, "Take for yourself among the mountains, houses, and among the trees and [in] that which they construct. Then eat from all the fruits and follow the ways of your Lord laid down [for you]." There emerges from their bellies a drink, varying in colors, in which there is healing for people. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought."
Qur'an (16: 68-69)
These verses talks about the honey bees. It says that a fluid emerges from the bellies of the honey bees, which is varying in color and has a heeling property. At the time of prophet Muhammed(ص) it was not known that honey was formed inside the honey bee. Until 1800s it was believed that the honey bees collected honey from flowers and stored it unchanged.
3. Expanding universe
"And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." Qur'an (51:47)
For example Qur'an prohibits riba ( lending and borrowing money for interest). If we take an opinion poll among people majority will be of the opinion that riba is good and there is no problem with it. But when we study its effects on society we will find that riba is a scheme which makes the rich more richer and the poor more poorer, which would result in an economic imbalance in the society. You might have heard that the world is in a debt of 60 trillion dollars. To whom are we in debt? To Saturn? No.. We are in debt to big corporate bankers. We in the sense most of our countries. Why are we in debt? Only because of riba.
So we cannot decide whether a rule Is faultless by looking at the opinion of people because most of us lack a long term vision. To decide on this we should learn its effects on society and on the person practicing the rule. If you learn about each and every rule prescribed by Quran, you will find that these rules are faultless.
Just think about whether it is possible for an illeterate man to instantaneously create verses at different situations which has indeapth meaning, which gives faultless rules, without any contradictions,which is inimitable, which is easily memorizable and gives a meaning and purpose for our life.
I didnt mean that the Qur'an is from God, just besause it says so. Put an 'and' in between each one of those points and think about whether its an evidence.
The contradiction free nature of Qur'an is an important evidence for its divinity. Suppose that we are writing a book saying that this is from God, and we are writing it in a style like God is speaking to its readers, which means it is full of lies. We should make sure that no sentence in it contradicts with some another sentence in the book. If we are writing such a book, we would be very careful, we will have to think a lot , we will have to do a lot of readings so that nothing in it should go against the established scientific facts and history ,we will have to proof read it and correct the mistakes.
But Qur'an was not revealed In a written form. It was revealed to Prophet Muhammad(ص), who was an illeterate, in a period of 23 years at various situations. In many cases the verses revealed were connected to the situation in which it was revealed. Sometimes it used to be related any event which just occured at the time. This shows that it was not preplanned.
The challenge was presented in three stages. In the first stage the Quran challenges to create a book of the stature of the Quran. Next, God made the challenge much easier by asking those who denied its divine origin to imitate even ten chapters of the Quran. The final challenge was to produce even a single chapter to match what is in the Quran
The shortest chapter in Quran contains only three verses. So to meet this challenge, all you have to do is just bring three sentences in Arabic similar to the Qur'an.
Here is a link to an article about the challenge of Qur'an:
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays...bility-of-the-shortest-chapter-in-the-qur’an/
Yes.. Its amazing that some portions of Vedas still remains unchanded..But we cannot be sure that a Veda in its entirety is unchanged. We can see pure monotheistic verses which strictly says that you should not worship any diety other than the supreme God. But in the same Veda you can see polytheistic verses.
Here, the peculiarity of Qur'an is that, even if we intentionally edit all the copies of Qur'an, or if we destroy all of them, there are millions who have memorized it. They can rewrite it, in its original language, without even a difference in spelling. Is there any such book in the world, other than Qur'an?
I am just pointing three simple ones. There are a lot more.
1. Barrier between sees
"He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses." Qur'an(55: 19-20)
2. Honey is formed inside the belly of honey bees.
"And your Lord inspired to the bee, "Take for yourself among the mountains, houses, and among the trees and [in] that which they construct. Then eat from all the fruits and follow the ways of your Lord laid down [for you]." There emerges from their bellies a drink, varying in colors, in which there is healing for people. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought."
Qur'an (16: 68-69)
These verses talks about the honey bees. It says that a fluid emerges from the bellies of the honey bees, which is varying in color and has a heeling property. At the time of prophet Muhammed(ص) it was not known that honey was formed inside the honey bee. Until 1800s it was believed that the honey bees collected honey from flowers and stored it unchanged.
3. Expanding universe
"And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are [its] expander." Qur'an (51:47)
How do we know whether a rule is faultless or not? People would have different opinions about a rule. To know whether it is faultless we have to learn about its effects. If the rule is essential for the person who is practicing it or for the society then it is faultless.
For example Qur'an prohibits riba ( lending and borrowing money for interest). If we take an opinion poll among people majority will be of the opinion that riba is good and there is no problem with it. But when we study its effects on society we will find that riba is a scheme which makes the rich more richer and the poor more poorer, which would result in an economic imbalance in the society. You might have heard that the world is in a debt of 60 trillion dollars. To whom are we in debt? To Saturn? No.. We are in debt to big corporate bankers. We in the sense most of our countries. Why are we in debt? Only because of riba.
So we cannot decide whether a rule Is faultless by looking at the opinion of people because most of us lack a long term vision. To decide on this we should learn its effects on society and on the person practicing the rule. If you learn about each and every rule prescribed by Quran, you will find that these rules are faultless.
People from different parts of the world, who doesn't even understand arabic, easily memorize it in Arabic, with the correct pronunciation. You would understand this , if u just try to memorize a verse from Quran in Arabic and then try memorizing its translation in English. You will find it hard to memorize the traslation but you could easily memorize the Arabic verses even if you don't understand even a word from it.
There are other scriptures which gives purpose and meaning for our life. But I think you have given a wrong example. According to Scientology the dynamic principle of existance is survival. The goal of life is considered to be infinite survival. If this is the case then, no one ever have met their goal and no one ever will meat their goal. So Scientology doest give us any hope, since our goal of life is unachievable.
Just think about whether it is possible for an illeterate man to instantaneously create verses at different situations which has indeapth meaning, which gives faultless rules, without any contradictions,which is inimitable, which is easily memorizable and gives a meaning and purpose for our life.
Midnight Rain
Well-Known Member
I understand that but my point doesn't change.
I will grand that if there is a mistake or contradiction it would be evidence against its divinity. However that doesn't mean that lack of contradiction (especially written by one man) isn't evidence of divinity. One man writing it makes it less likely to create contradiction.
In terms of scientific issues the salt and fresh water mixing is a pretty solid hit against it. They do mix all the time. There are a few really neat phenomenon where salt and fresh water have been side by side without mixing but by in large they do mix on a regular basis.
Aside from the fact that this is not my language so I cannot re-create it in Arabic it seems a simple enough task. But what are the criteria? What is it being judged upon? What makes those three verses better than the Buddhist sutra? To me I see no objective or inherent advantage the Qur'an has against already existing works. So help me understand how you judge it.
The Tora for one. Many of the sutras of the Buddha. Then there are many others that are purely verbal with no evidence of change over time. The Vedas come from several different origins btw. They are not a single source and nor are they all from the same religion. But the Tora has remained unchanged in Jewish tradition for far longer than Islam.
1. Which barrier? Are you talking about the very rare case where two different ocean currents meet at an ill defined and often moving point where it appears as if they are not mixing? Other than that we see no barriers between oceans most of the time.
2. I don't know where they thought honey came from if not from within the bee. I don't give any credence to that.
3. This verse isn't talking about an expanding universe. and looked at within context it actually goes on to talk about how the heavens are a dome covering the earth and god holds it up suspended in nothing and would fall down and crush us if he wished. He even talked about falling pieces of heaven being clouds. None of which are scientifically accurate.
Killing infidels, women being servants of men, saying its okay for men to beat their wives? None of that is morally sound
Though despite those you said that we cannot understand what is moral or correct because humans have conflicting opinions on the matter. You say that you can only find no fault in the Qur'an's version but isn't that only because you have faith that it is correct? Otherwise wouldn't it just be your opinion that its correct?
This is true of any text. Memorization, especially of things that rhyme rhythmically. I have memorized several Latin verses without speaking Latin. This simply means that its simple.
Seeing as it was created over the course of years and years and years....not as impressive. He sounds like he was a talented man but far far far from what I would expect from someone speaking as the mouthpiece of god. Even added together none of this adds up to anything more significant than any other religion. I still find my old religion of Paganism to be more compelling in its complexities and survival though the ages of persecution and yet help enable people to have shared experiences and similar workings and legends that all reflect from the same root forces of the universe. It gave me plenty of meaning in life. But I still don't believe it to be true.
Shad
Veteran Member
Bee keeping and honey was around for centuries before Islam. It was used for medicine, taxes, food, etc. Repeating knowledge already present in not divine. Without bees converting necture to honey nectar ferments. Any bee keeper that lost their bees for whatever reason could figure this out.
https://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/agcomm/newscolumns/archives/OSL/2000/September/091400OSL.html
http://www.greektexts.com/library/Aristotle/History_of_Animals/eng/268.html
The expanding heavens verse was change due to modern knowledge. Prior to Hubble it was never translated as expander at all. Now suddenly it is. Ad hoc rationalization.There is also a difference between being an expander and expanding. Expanding could already be complete but does not change the fact that were was an expander. The verse does nothing to suggest expansion is currently happening. Also classic tasfir never support this modern interpretation.
http://quran.com/51/47
https://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/agcomm/newscolumns/archives/OSL/2000/September/091400OSL.html
http://www.greektexts.com/library/Aristotle/History_of_Animals/eng/268.html
The expanding heavens verse was change due to modern knowledge. Prior to Hubble it was never translated as expander at all. Now suddenly it is. Ad hoc rationalization.There is also a difference between being an expander and expanding. Expanding could already be complete but does not change the fact that were was an expander. The verse does nothing to suggest expansion is currently happening. Also classic tasfir never support this modern interpretation.
http://quran.com/51/47
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The Qu'ran says the Earth is flat. Just like the Bible. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Flat_Earth_and_the_Quran
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
yeah .. you can be a 'John', or you can be a 'Muhammad'
I'm not convinced by the gospel of John .. I'd rather stick with the so-called synoptics..
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
That article is total nonsense .. I have read the Qur'an many times, in arabic with translation .. I have never felt that it implies that the planets are not 'round' .. it is not education in science .. it's about religious knowledge.
In any case, the earth is flat in places .. and mountainous in others
While technology is of great benefit to mankind, it can also be their downfall ..
eg. "they paved paradise, and put up a parking lot"