Believers and Disbelievers

[McBell]

As you said, there is no point in wasting my energy to convince you that Quran was not changed before it was written into a book form. But still I should make it clear. Whenever a new verse was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (ص), he would recite it to people, which they immediately memorized and passed it on to the distant tribes. Even before the death of Prophet Muhammad(ص) most of the Arabian Peninsula had converted to Islam. Quran was memorized by a large number of people all over Arabian peninsula, even before it was compiled into a book form. There was no scope for anyone to change the words of Quran before its compilation.

Arabia at 600s was an oral society.Very few people could read and write, thus huge emphasis was placed on ability to memorize long poems, letters, and other messages. Before Islam, Makkah was a center of Arabic poetry. Their natural ability to memorize and the rhythmic nature of the Quran made its memorization much easier.

and yet there were enough changes in the WRITTEN versions to not only declare one specific version the "true" version, but to also order all others destroyed....
Given that fact, it seems rather much like wishful thinking that it never changed while being oral only.

 

[Midnight Rain]

I am almost sure that we are not talking about the same thing. Try these links

http://www.the-open-mind.com/500-ye...us-christ-was-not-crucified-vatican-in-awe-1/

http://www.successfulflow.com/2014/05/1500-year-old-bible-claims-jesus-christ.html?m=1

http://www.conspiracyclub.co/2015/12/21/1500-year-old-bible-found-2/

Yep we are talking about the same thing. Has the same picture and everything.

As you said, there is no point in wasting my energy to convince you that Quran was not changed before it was written into a book form. But still I should make it clear. Whenever a new verse was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (ص), he would recite it to people, which they immediately memorized and passed it on to the distant tribes. Even before the death of Prophet Muhammad(ص) most of the Arabian Peninsula had converted to Islam. Quran was memorized by a large number of people all over Arabian peninsula, even before it was compiled into a book form. There was no scope for anyone to change the words of Quran before its compilation.

Arabia at 600s was an oral society.Very few people could read and write, thus huge emphasis was placed on ability to memorize long poems, letters, and other messages. Before Islam, Makkah was a center of Arabic poetry. Their natural ability to memorize and the rhythmic nature of the Quran made its memorization much easier.

Okay. That is fine. Is there anything further that has to do with the Quran and how it is distinctly different from the other books?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I am almost sure that we are not talking about the same thing. Try these links

http://www.the-open-mind.com/500-ye...us-christ-was-not-crucified-vatican-in-awe-1/

http://www.successfulflow.com/2014/05/1500-year-old-bible-claims-jesus-christ.html?m=1

http://www.conspiracyclub.co/2015/12/21/1500-year-old-bible-found-2/

There's a reason that the only sites to claim this are online blogs, online news sites, etc. It's because nobody could confirm that the document was either as old as claimed or even contained the content it was supposed to.

Also, Syriac wasn't spoken until about 200+ years after Jesus. It's a dialect of Middle Aramaic.

As you said, there is no point in wasting my energy to convince you that Quran was not changed before it was written into a book form.

Well, it was changed after, anyway:
Fedeli, A. (2005). Early Evidences of Variant Readings in Qur’ānic Manuscripts. Die dunklen Anfänge: Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und frühen Geschichte des Islam, 293-316.

See also
Al-Imam, A. A. (2007). Variant readings of the Qur’an: a critical study of their historical and linguistic origins. International Institute of Islamic Thought
Small, K. E. (2011). Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts. Lexington Books.

But still I should make it clear. Whenever a new verse was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (ص), he would recite it to people, which they immediately memorized and passed it on to the distant tribes.

The problem is this tradition runs into problems rather quickly. I've attached a review paper on this matter from A Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an

 

[muhammad_isa]

and yet there were enough changes in the WRITTEN versions to not only declare one specific version the "true" version, but to also order all others destroyed....
Given that fact, it seems rather much like wishful thinking that it never changed while being oral only.

OK .. let's say it isn't the original .. do you believe that the original was from a prophet of God?
I don't think that you do, do you..

So, it's all rather academic and pointless conjecture

 

[Rajina]

Yep we are talking about the same thing. Has the same picture and everything.

Okay. That is fine. Is there anything further that has to do with the Quran and how it is distinctly different from the other books?

Did u read my earlier post which I quoted in my reply?

 

[psychoslice]

'There is no God' is your belief based on your assumptions that all religions are manmade. You believe that your belief is a fact just like how religious people believe that their belief is the fact. The only difference is that, religious people have lots of evidences to show in support of their belief. The only evidence which the atheists have in support of their belief is 'their lack of understanding and unwillingness to accept the evidences provided by the theists'.

Yes.. My religion is not the only way to know God. In fact you don't even need any religion to know God. You can know God through majority of other religions too.

"Ishwar(God) alone provides true knowledge to truth seekers. He alone is promoter of knowledge and motivates virtuous people into noble actions to seek bliss. He alone is the creator and manager of the world. Hence never worship anyone else except one and only Ishwar." (Rigveda 10.49.1)

This is a verse from Rigveda, which is a Hindu scripture. God has sent His Guidance to every part of the world at different times. Qur'an is the final unchanged Guidance from God.

I am an Indian. If religions had so much relation with the culture of a place as you say, I should have been a Hindu and not a Muslim.
80% of the Muslim population are nonarabs.

If one has the true willingness to know and accept the Truth, then no matter which ever faith and culture he/she is born in, he/she will find the Truth. God has given this desire to search for truth within each one of us. Much like the craving for sweets which Kelly of phoenix said about. But if we ignore this desire, and close our mind against the Truth , we will never find the Truth. Being born in a Muslim family and having an Arabic name doesn't make a person Muslim. It is his/her faith that makes him/her a Muslim.

Hi, I'll just say that you presented yourself well, I can agree with you if there was a god, but there isn't, so I will leave it at that, thanks.

 

[McBell]

OK .. let's say it isn't the original .. do you believe that the original was from a prophet of God?
I don't think that you do, do you..

So, it's all rather academic and pointless conjecture

pointless?
To point out the flaw in the wishful thinking?
I understand the one it has been pointed out to will not be able to comprehend the flaw.
However, it is not for their benefit I point it out.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Did u read my earlier post which I quoted in my reply?

I didn't. Allow me to do that now.

1. The Qur'an itself claims that it is from the Almighty God

Not evidence. Not even unique or the first to do so.

2. There are no contradictions in Quran.
“Don’t they ponder over the Qur’an, had it been from anyone besides Allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions” (Quran 4:82)

(If you just Google for contradictions in Qur'an, you can see lots of contradictions listed by the haters of Islam.. Before posting anyone of those over here, please make sure that it is valid.)

I don't fancy trying to get into this debate. Because its a non-issue if it has contradictions or not. I know of several books that are not divine that have no contradictions. The presence of contradictions weakens the stance of divinity but its absence does not necessarily strengthen it.

3.The Quran in many places puts forward a challenge for those who deny its divinity.

'Or do they say: "He (Muhammad) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" '[Qur'an 10:37-38]

The challenge still remains unmet.

What is the challenge exactly? Bring a similar book? This is so subjective that it can always be denied. From my point of view I see it as very similar to the Bible. I see it similar to the Torah. So in my mind that has been met. But in your mind it has not. Is there an objective way to judge this? I can gurantee that my subjective opinion isn't different because a lack of honesty.

4.Quran has remained unchanged for more than1400 years. The Quran itself claims that it will remain unchanged.
"It is We who have sent down the Dhikr (Qur’an) and surely We will preserve it” (Quran15:9)
Even if we edit all the copies of Quran in the world, we cannot change it , because millions of people have memorized it in its original language.

Once written down and copied it has a reference and the reference makes it easy to remain unchanged. Its not a difficult process if you are diligent about it. So not a symbol of divinity. Portions of the Vedas are 2,500 years old and still remain unchanged.

5. There are several scientifically proven facts mentioned in Qur'an which were not known to the people of that time

This I have not heard a one of. List some for me. My guess is its similar to the Christian claim that the universe had a beginning or that god held the world in nothingness. Neither are similar in any way to the scientific discoveries far after the fact.

6.The path of right conduct that the Qur'an prescribes is faultless.

I do not agree that the path of right conduct as described in the Qur'an is faultless. In fact this I am 100% sure of is full any number of moral shortcomings.

7. It is easily momorizable in its original language. Even small children in the age group 3 to 10 have memorized it completely.

Being simplistic is not a sign of divinity. The Iliad and Odyssey are far longer than the Qur'an and were also verbally memorized.

8. It gives a meaning and purpose for our life.

Not evidence for divinity or truth. So does Scientology

 

[muhammad_isa]

pointless?
To point out the flaw in the wishful thinking?
...

What wishful thinking? That the Qur'an contains guidance for mankind?

I wonder which verses you think might have been changed? The ones that say that Jesus, peace be with him, is not God .. or perhaps some other thing that you personally don't like..

Suggesting it might have changed doesn't alter anything for me .. I don't see any inconsistencies..
I also don't think it HAS been changed .. why should I believe that I'm being duped? .. it doesn't feel that way to me at all!

 

[Rajina]

Well, it was changed after, anyway:
Fedeli, A. (2005). Early Evidences of Variant Readings in Qur’ānic Manuscripts. Die dunklen Anfänge: Neue Forschungen zur Entstehung und frühen Geschichte des Islam, 293-316.

See also
Al-Imam, A. A. (2007). Variant readings of the Qur’an: a critical study of their historical and linguistic origins. International Institute of Islamic Thought
Small, K. E. (2011). Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts. Lexington Books.


The problem is this tradition runs into problems rather quickly. I've attached a review paper on this matter from A Cambridge Companion to the Qur'an

Sorry to correct you.. None of the references which you have given shows that Qur'an was changed. The first paper discusses about the variants in the writing styles of the Quranic manuscripts. The second document discusses about the different dialects(qira'as) of the Quran. Here, the words are exactly same, but with different recitation styles. I didn't get the third document online. I saw a Wikipedia article about it. It also doesn't show that Quran was changed.The author tries to criticize the Qur'anic manuscripts and concludes that a critical text of the Quran cannot currently be constructed.

The paper you have attached also doesn't show that Qur'an was changed. What I could understand from this paper is that either the author had a very week understanding of the Qur'an or he is intentionally trying to misguide the readers who are ignorant of the Qur'an. Someone who knows Qur'an would even doubt, whether the author had even seen the Qur'an.

In the first part of the paper, the author tries to show that many of the verses in Qur'an indicates that God isn't the speaker.
This is one of the examples which he has given:

"Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a straight path."" Quran (43:64)

The author is trying to say that, since its written 'my Lord' and 'your Lord', I.e God is referenced to in third person form, it shows that the speaker is not God.Anyone who bothers to make a slightest attempt to open the Qur'an and read the previous verse would understand that its the dialogue of Jesus to his people. The verses are like this:-

And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me,
Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a straight path."
Qur'an (43: 63-64)

In the next half of the paper, the author complicatedly explains the recompilation of Quran at the time of Usman bin Affan, by which Quran was unified into a single dialect.

 

[viole]

I didnt understand how the probability of randomly chosen religion X to be man made, is suspiciously close to 1. Can you explain it please?

Simple. I consider all mutually contradicting religions today and in the past. Apollo, Jaweh, Jupiter, Ra, the great Juju at the bottom of the sea, Thor, Jesus God, Jesus not God, Jesus = 1/3 God, Xenu, the great Spirit, Ganesh, etc.etc. I guess they must be in the ballpark of thousands.

Now I pick one randomly. Since they all mutually exclude themselves, for what concerns the qualities of god, gods, chances are pretty high that I pick a man-made one. Very close to 1. Suspiciously close.

For sure we should take a break and realize the natural predisposition humans have to make up their gods (unless you think things like Apollo are not man made). It seems to be a pretty consistent psychological trait.

Ciao

- viole

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
Now I pick one randomly. Since they all mutually exclude themselves, for what concerns the qualities of god, gods, chances are pretty high that I pick a man-made one.

I wouldn't recommend picking a religion 'randomly' .. not very intelligent, is it?

Moreover, they are not all mutually exclusive..
Many religions have the concept of a creator God, and some signs of Divinity.

 

[viole]

I wouldn't recommend picking a religion 'randomly' .. not very intelligent, is it?

Probably more intelligent than picking the religion of our parents.

Moreover, they are not all mutually exclusive..
Many religions have the concept of a creator God, and some signs of Divinity.

So, you think that Apollo is compatible with Allah?

Ciao

- viole

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Simple. I consider all mutually contradicting religions today and in the past. Apollo, Jaweh, Jupiter, Ra, the great Juju at the bottom of the sea, Thor, Jesus God, Jesus not God, Jesus = 1/3 God, Xenu, the great Spirit, Ganesh, etc.etc. I guess they must be in the ballpark of thousands.

Now I pick one randomly. Since they all mutually exclude themselves, for what concerns the qualities of god, gods, chances are pretty high that I pick a man-made one. Very close to 1. Suspiciously close.

I may steal this to use to illustrate issues with the philosophy/interpretation of probability.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Sorry to correct you.. None of the references which you have given shows that Qur'an was changed.

"All manuscript traditions have variants that are clearly the result of scribal carelessness and inattention...This has proven true for the Qur'an manuscript surveyed as well as there being other kinds of mistakes. Below are the ones encountered. These do not include copyist mistakes that were caught by a scribe and physically corrected."
and later in the same work in the section "Word Variants"
"This category is restricted to single words. Groups of words and phrases will be discussed in a later category."
Small, K. E. (2011). Textual Criticism and Qur'an Manuscripts. Lexington Books.
Feel free to discuss the palimpsests that Fedeli covers which include e.g., additional sentences/phrases.

The paper you have attached also doesn't show that Qur'an was changed.

It wasn't intended to, but rather to provide a version of its origins that isn't simple religious dogma.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So, you think that Apollo is compatible with Allah?

I said that they are not ALL mutually exclusive.

"Pick a god, any god" .. No, there's no point in that .. there is however a point in seeking for truth.

..gods that look like superman or superwoman are an invention of mankind .. gods for this and gods for that and gods for the other .. that's not about truth .. that's about ignorance, desire and culture

Of course, you will claim that Almighty God (Jehovah/Allah) is the same thing. It is not .. the concept of a monotheistic, spiritual god who created the universe is not equivalent to mankind's created gods which come in all different shapes and sizes. eg. Apollo has a penis etc. etc.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

..gods that look like superman or superwoman are an invention of mankind .. gods for this and gods for that and gods for the other .. that's not about truth .. that's about ignorance, desire and culture

How do you know that? What is the distinction?

 

[muhammad_isa]

How do you know that? What is the distinction?

Almighty God created the universe and all it contains .. anything that we identify with 'creatures' can't be the truth ..

..'a family of gods' is no different than you or I .. apart from the fact that they have been given superpowers .. no difference to an entertaining comic, really..

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Almighty God created the universe and all it contains .. anything that we identify with 'creatures' can't be the truth ..

..'a family of gods' is no different than you or I .. apart from the fact that they have been given superpowers .. no difference to an entertaining comic, really..

But how do you know one is true and the other isn't? Why does believing in one make you wise and the other make you ignorant? Precisely how can you demonstrate that either is more likely to exist than the other?

 

[viole]

I may steal this to use to illustrate issues with the philosophy/interpretation of probability.

Sure.

Ciao

- viole