Believers and Disbelievers

[FearGod]

Do you seriously believe this mate?

You may read this

 

[firedragon]

I don't have any beliefs regarding reincarnation since I don't think I have enough evidence to believe either way. But I think it's interesting.

Oh its very interesting I agree. Anyway, religion and theology is interesting anyway. Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

You may read this

I believe that any one born to a Muslim family will know this Hadith brother. But no offence, I don't believe it.

 

[FearGod]

I believe that any one born to a Muslim family will know this Hadith brother. But no offence, I don't believe it.

We have the same physical bodies which are naturally occur, sperm + ovum ....etc.

Do you believe that we're zygotes or souls?
Will the zygote be a bad person or the soul will be a bad person or a good person.
Physical bodies aren't the souls.

 

[psychoslice]

The same case applies with atheism also. Atheists believe that God is a concept created by human beings and that all religions are manmade. Atheists believe that their belief is a fact and the ultimate truth. A christian believes that his/her belief is the ultimate truth. A Muslim believes that his/her belief is the ultimate truth. Everyone believes that their own belief is the ultimate truth.

But all these beliefs cannot be true at the same time.

Atheist don't need to not believe in what you believe in, because there's nothing to believe, there is no god, so how can you make a belief. If there is such thing as a god, then I would say there are many ways to know him, not just one religion, your religion is made fore the time and culture, as all other religions, if you were born in anther culture then you probably would be arguing for that belief as much as you are arguing for the belief that you have now.

 

[firedragon]

We have the same physical bodies which are naturally occur, sperm + ovum ....etc.

Do you believe that we're zygotes or souls?
Will the zygote be a bad person or the soul will be a bad person or a good person.
Physical bodies aren't the souls.

Alright. But that doesnt mean some Gin comes as cats.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Atheist don't need to not believe in what you believe in, because there's nothing to believe, there is no god, so how can you make a belief. If there is such thing as a god, then I would say there are many ways to know him, not just one religion, your religion is made fore the time and culture, as all other religions, if you were born in anther culture then you probably would be arguing for that belief as much as you are arguing for the belief that you have now.

It's like having sweets craving: some (athiests) aren't into sweets (only an example, LOL), and everyone else fulfills their need for sweets differently ... some use candy, some use ice cream, some just drink sweet drinks, etc. Sweets provide happiness and comfort ... aaaaaaaaand ... if you eat/drink too much, you'll get health problems.

 

[FearGod]

Alright. But that doesnt mean some Gin comes as cats.

Do you believe that the Jinn world exits?

 

[Midnight Rain]

Some of the books in the Bible (Gospel, Thorah and Psalms) were originally from Allah. But we do not have them in their original form. Even if we accept that they are not editted, we do not have them in their original languages. The language spoken by Jesus was Aramaic. But the oldest Bible that we have is in Greek language

You might have read about a 1500 year old Bible written in Syriac language discovered from Turkey. According to that Bible, Jesus was never crucified and Jesus rose to heaven while alive. Moreover according to that Bible, Jesus was just a prophet of God who spoke the word of God, and not the son of God. This is exactly what the Qur'an also says.

If you are referencing what I think you are referencing its a hoax. It wasn't written in Syriac but there were two manuscripts. One was written in Spanish the other in Italian and both were dated about 400 years ago not 1500 years ago. Its not a recent discovery.

But you can say that I half agree with you at least. The bible has been changed and edited over time. I just also believe that the concepts f the Quran as well. However even if they were not changed from the point in time of Muhammad it wouldn't mean that its correct. Unchanging is a sign of being well preserved. The bible of the Catholics cannon has not changed since its canonization. But that is of little remark when discussing if its true or not.

Qur'an was not written down in paper at the time of Prophet Muhammad(ص). But it was written on scraps of bones, parchments and other materials. Paper was not imported to Makkah and Madina at that time. Prophet Muhammad(ص) appointed numerous Companions of his to serve as scribes, writing down the latest verses as soon as they were revealed. Mu’awiya ibn Abu Sufyan and Zaid bin Thabit were among the scribes who had this duty. Prophet Muhammad(ص) used to ask these scribes to read back what they wrote, to ensure that it was free of error. To further ensure that there were no errors, he ordered that no one records anything else, not even his words, hadith, on the same sheet as Qur'an. Regarding the sheets that the Qur'an was being written down on, he stated “and whoever has written anything from me other than the Qur'an should erase it”. This was done to ensure that no other words were accidentally thought to be part of the text of the Qur'an.

That is common practice in copying manuscripts. It isn't a religious or special issue.

It is important to understand, however, that physical writing down of the Qur'an was not the main way that the Qur'an was recorded. People memorized the verses of Qur'an as soon as it was revealed. The Quran was not narrated to just a few selected Companions. It was heard and memorized by hundreds and thousands of people. Those who had heard verses from the Prophet would go and spread them to tribes far away, who would also memorize them. In this way, the Quran achieved a literary status known among the Arabs as mutawatir. Mutawatir means that it was so vastly disseminated to so many different groups of people, who all had the same exact wording, that it is inconceivable that, that any one person or group could have falsified it

Its not inconceivable. Especially since they were written down on scraps and bones and the Quran was cannonized shortly after his death. I also doubt that every single thing was word for word the same.

Allah states in the Quran in Surat al-Hijr, verse 9:

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ
“Indeed, it is We who sent down the Quran and indeed, We will be it’s guardian.”​

Neat.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Muslims reject this talk categorically
They say that the Koran is not associated with any ancient religion
And that the Koran the word of God
This is a big problem in Islam

They can say that all they want but then that simply means they aren't interested in having a conversation. At this point I request them to explain why that is so or I say good day.

 

[psychoslice]

It's like having sweets craving: some (athiests) aren't into sweets (only an example, LOL), and everyone else fulfills their need for sweets differently ... some use candy, some use ice cream, some just drink sweet drinks, etc. Sweets provide happiness and comfort ... aaaaaaaaand ... if you eat/drink too much, you'll get health problems.

Well said, and you have me craving for sweets now, yum yum.

 

[Rajina]

Atheist don't need to not believe in what you believe in, because there's nothing to believe, there is no god, so how can you make a belief.

'There is no God' is your belief based on your assumptions that all religions are manmade. You believe that your belief is a fact just like how religious people believe that their belief is the fact. The only difference is that, religious people have lots of evidences to show in support of their belief. The only evidence which the atheists have in support of their belief is 'their lack of understanding and unwillingness to accept the evidences provided by the theists'.

If there is such thing as a god, then I would say there are many ways to know him, not just one religion,

Yes.. My religion is not the only way to know God. In fact you don't even need any religion to know God. You can know God through majority of other religions too.

"Ishwar(God) alone provides true knowledge to truth seekers. He alone is promoter of knowledge and motivates virtuous people into noble actions to seek bliss. He alone is the creator and manager of the world. Hence never worship anyone else except one and only Ishwar." (Rigveda 10.49.1)

This is a verse from Rigveda, which is a Hindu scripture. God has sent His Guidance to every part of the world at different times. Qur'an is the final unchanged Guidance from God.

Atheist don't need to not believe in what you believe in, because there's nothing to believe, there is no god, so how can you make a belief. If there is such thing as a god, then I would say there are many ways to know him, not just one religion, your religion is made fore the time and culture, as all other religions, if you were born in anther culture then you probably would be arguing for that belief as much as you are arguing for the belief that you have now.

I am an Indian. If religions had so much relation with the culture of a place as you say, I should have been a Hindu and not a Muslim.
80% of the Muslim population are nonarabs.

If one has the true willingness to know and accept the Truth, then no matter which ever faith and culture he/she is born in, he/she will find the Truth. God has given this desire to search for truth within each one of us. Much like the craving for sweets which Kelly of phoenix said about. But if we ignore this desire, and close our mind against the Truth , we will never find the Truth. Being born in a Muslim family and having an Arabic name doesn't make a person Muslim. It is his/her faith that makes him/her a Muslim.

 

[Rajina]

If you are referencing what I think you are referencing its a hoax. It wasn't written in Syriac but there were two manuscripts. One was written in Spanish the other in Italian and both were dated about 400 years ago not 1500 years ago. Its not a recent discovery.

http://mirrorspectrum.com/behind-th...500-year-old-bible-which-was-found-in-turkey#

http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal...-bible-which-was-found-in-turkey-2501420.html

But you can say that I half agree with you at least. The bible has been changed and edited over time. I just also believe that the concepts f the Quran as well. However even if they were not changed from the point in time of Muhammad it wouldn't mean that its correct. Unchanging is a sign of being well preserved. The bible of the Catholics cannon has not changed since its canonization. But that is of little remark when discussing if its true or not.

That is common practice in copying manuscripts. It isn't a religious or special issue.

Its not inconceivable. Especially since they were written down on scraps and bones and the Quran was cannonized shortly after his death. I also doubt that every single thing was word for word the same.

Actually that was my reply to you when you said that you haven't heard any arguments in support of the claim that Qur'an is unchanged. I just explained to you in detail, why Quran is unchanged and how it is preserved. I didn't mean that Quran is true just because it is unchanged. There are several other factors too which I have mentioned in my previous posts in this thread.

 

[Rajina]

Sorry, but I've heard this same thing said about the religion I was born in(evangelical protestant) and others.

Are you sure that its the same thing that muslims also claim? have you tried exploring Quran?

 

[Rajina]

Because the 4199 which are false use the same epistemology and evidence for their claims as the 4200th. So, even if it is true that at most one could be true, we can conclude that their claims are all equally reliable. Therefore, there is no rational justification to pick one and not another one.

If we consider all mutually exclusive religions of today and in the past, we can also conclude that there is a natural predisposition for humans to make up their own version of God. At least, the probability of randomly chosen religion X to be man made, is suspiciously close to 1. And God does not appear to do anything to correct the situation.

Add to this the fact that all of those beliefs are not equally distributed on the population of the planet, we can also conclude that people's primary epistemology is simply to pick the one they grew into.

Because of this, there is ovewhelming rational warrant to reject them all.

Ciao

- viole

I think you have made a wrong assumption that if one religion is true, then the remaing 4199 goes false. This 4200 religions count is not the count of major religions, but this includes different churches, denominations, religious bodies, faith groups, tribes, cultures, movements, etc. If we exclude the sects and subsects of the same major religion, then the total number of religions in the world would be less than 50.

If one religion is true it need not necessarily indicate that all the remaining religions are false. For example there are people in Japan who practice both Shintoism and Buddhism, because they are mutually compatible religions.

Another problem is that, even if it indicated that the remaining religions are false, it need not necessarily indicate that they are completely manmade. For example, if Islam is true, it indicates that christianity and Judaism had a divine origin, and it also indicates a possibility that much of the other major religions might have a divine origin.

I didnt understand how the probability of randomly chosen religion X to be man made, is suspiciously close to 1. Can you explain it please?

 

[Jumi]

Are you sure that its the same thing that muslims also claim?

Yes. I've heard the exact same thing said about the Christian Bible and often.

have you tried exploring Quran?

I've read some of it, but not in Arabic.

 

[ArtieE]

'There is no God' is your belief based on your assumptions that all religions are manmade.

Weak atheists have no beliefs. You are talking about strong atheists. And strong atheists have many different reasons for believing gods don't exist.

You believe that your belief is a fact just like how religious people believe that their belief is the fact. The only difference is that, religious people have lots of evidences to show in support of their belief.

You representatives for different religions don't even believe each others evidence and you complain that we don't believe your evidence?

 

[Midnight Rain]

http://mirrorspectrum.com/behind-th...500-year-old-bible-which-was-found-in-turkey#

http://beforeitsnews.com/paranormal...-bible-which-was-found-in-turkey-2501420.html

Both of those are showing error 404 (missing) for those articles. But I believe we are talking about the same thing.

Actually that was my reply to you when you said that you haven't heard any arguments in support of the claim that Qur'an is unchanged. I just explained to you in detail, why Quran is unchanged and how it is preserved. I didn't mean that Quran is true just because it is unchanged. There are several other factors too which I have mentioned in my previous posts in this thread.

You gave several details as to why it may have been unchanged but there is no direct evidence that it hasn't been. Once its written down and canonized its pretty easy to keep a document unchanged. However the issue is prior to that. However to me that is a non issue. It would be a waste of time for you to spend energy to convince me that it was unchanged prior to it being written down and canonized.

What other points were made that seem to show its validity other than the claim it hasn't been altered since its canonization? I must have missed those points. If you could either repeate them or direct me to the post where they were made.

 

[Rajina]

Both of those are showing error 404 (missing) for those articles. But I believe we are talking about the same thing.

I am almost sure that we are not talking about the same thing. Try these links

http://www.the-open-mind.com/500-ye...us-christ-was-not-crucified-vatican-in-awe-1/

http://www.successfulflow.com/2014/05/1500-year-old-bible-claims-jesus-christ.html?m=1

http://www.conspiracyclub.co/2015/12/21/1500-year-old-bible-found-2/

You gave several details as to why it may have been unchanged but there is no direct evidence that it hasn't been. Once its written down and canonized its pretty easy to keep a document unchanged. However the issue is prior to that. However to me that is a non issue. It would be a waste of time for you to spend energy to convince me that it was unchanged prior to it being written down and canonized.

What other points were made that seem to show its validity other than the claim it hasn't been altered since its canonization? I must have missed those points. If you could either repeate them or direct me to the post where they were made.

As you said, there is no point in wasting my energy to convince you that Quran was not changed before it was written into a book form. But still I should make it clear. Whenever a new verse was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (ص), he would recite it to people, which they immediately memorized and passed it on to the distant tribes. Even before the death of Prophet Muhammad(ص) most of the Arabian Peninsula had converted to Islam. Quran was memorized by a large number of people all over Arabian peninsula, even before it was compiled into a book form. There was no scope for anyone to change the words of Quran before its compilation.

Arabia at 600s was an oral society.Very few people could read and write, thus huge emphasis was placed on ability to memorize long poems, letters, and other messages. Before Islam, Makkah was a center of Arabic poetry. Their natural ability to memorize and the rhythmic nature of the Quran made its memorization much easier.

I can give you some facts about Qur'an which all together forms an evidence for the divinity of Qur'an. But I am no one to convince you or make you believe. If you really wish to know and accept the Truth, then God will help you and you will be convinced. If you do not wish to accept the Truth, then nobody can help you..

These are those facts which together forms an evidence for the divinity of Qur'an:-

1. The Qur'an itself claims that it is from the Almighty God

2. There are no contradictions in Quran.
“Don’t they ponder over the Qur’an, had it been from anyone besides Allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions” (Quran 4:82)

(If you just Google for contradictions in Qur'an, you can see lots of contradictions listed by the haters of Islam.. Before posting anyone of those over here, please make sure that it is valid.)

3.The Quran in many places puts forward a challenge for those who deny its divinity.

'Or do they say: "He (Muhammad) has forged it?" Say: "Bring then a surah (chapter) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful!" '[Qur'an 10:37-38]

The challenge still remains unmet.

4.Quran has remained unchanged for more than1400 years. The Quran itself claims that it will remain unchanged.
"It is We who have sent down the Dhikr (Qur’an) and surely We will preserve it” (Quran15:9)
Even if we edit all the copies of Quran in the world, we cannot change it , because millions of people have memorized it in its original language.

5. There are several scientifically proven facts mentioned in Qur'an which were not known to the people of that time

6.The path of right conduct that the Qur'an prescribes is faultless.

7. It is easily momorizable in its original language. Even small children in the age group 3 to 10 have memorized it completely.

8. It gives a meaning and purpose for our life.

If you wish to refute this, please make sure that you do not separately take any of the above and then make silly arguments like 'The nursery rhymes book is easily memorizable by children, so does that make it divine?'
Think about whether there is any book in the world which satisfies all the above properties.. Think about whether it is humanly possible to write such a book.

You can read the Qur'an and check by yourself whether all the facts that I have mentioned are true or not. Here is the link to online Qur'an http://quran.com/

 

[Shad]

I am almost sure that we are not talking about the same thing. Try these links

http://www.the-open-mind.com/500-ye...us-christ-was-not-crucified-vatican-in-awe-1/

http://www.successfulflow.com/2014/05/1500-year-old-bible-claims-jesus-christ.html?m=1

http://www.conspiracyclub.co/2015/12/21/1500-year-old-bible-found-2/

http://www.conspiracyclub.co/2015/12/21/1500-year-old-bible-found-2/

Still a forgery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas