Ben Sasse to Trump: Are you 'recanting' oath to protect the First Amendment?

[Falvlun]

That alone is not enough reason. But combined with the outright lies. Its an issue that needs addressed.

You have yet to provide evidence of lies.

I don't recall "hacking voting machines" or "ok signs" or "milk = white supremacy " stories, which indicates to me that they probably weren't mainstream.

Your interpretation of the "Obama travel ban" is, in fact, erroneous, and it doesn't really explain why the news shouldn't cover the spectacularly incompetent and suspect roll out of Trump's travel ban.

And the golden showers story hasn't been confirmed or denied; but it is, in fact, part of the dossier. Do you think that we shouldn't know that?

In contrast, we do have legitimate fake news (as in untrue, made up stories) being peddled by Fox News, such as the Seth Rich murder story, later retracted. Or the pizzagate conspiracy, that was gobbled up by right wing media.

 

[Enoch07]

Wrong again. Obama's was never intended to be a ban. From your own source:
"This is not the same as an outright ban on citizens and dual-citizens of these countries, as the new executive order seems to have instigated. Instead, this list of countries- which is the list of countries referenced by the new order- merely says that if you were, say, from the United Kingdom (and could enter the US under ESTA rather than getting a visa at the embassy) but had visited Iran since 2011, you would not be able to get into America without applying for a full visa."

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news...ation-responsible-muslim-ban-executive-order/

Yeah he tweaked it. But Obama originally wrote it. The fake news was that Trump wrote it. Which he did not.

 

[Falvlun]

Yeah he tweaked it. But Obama originally wrote it. The fake news was that Trump wrote it. Which he did not.

Just because Obama at some point limited immigration from some Middle Eastern countries does not mean that he should be considered the author of every travel ban for ME countries in the future. You need to have a little bit more to go on than that.

There are some stark differences between the Obama-era restrictions and the Trump travel ban.

Threat:
Obama's 2011 restriction on Iraqis was due to a specific threat that has just occurred. (The failed Bowling Green thing).

Trump's is preemptive. There were no imminent or recent attacks by any immigrants or refugees from the countries in his ban.

Range:
Obama's was narrower. It put a pause on processing of Iraqis refugees. Trump's ban was to prevent entry of any non-US citizen from 7 countries. Also note: refugees were still accepted; the process was just slowed.

Timeline:
Obama's was for 6 mo. Trump's is indefinite, in regards to refugees.

Scope:
Obama's temporary ban only applied to Iraqis. Trump's applies to 7 countries. The list you think Trump got the 7 countries from wasn't about travel bans at all: it was about a visa waiver. Basically, there's a list of 38 countries whose citizens are allowed to visit the US for 90 days without a Visa. A 2015 act stated that if a citizen of one of those 38 countries had visited Iraq, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Libya, or Somalia, then they would no longer qualify for the waiver. They had to get a visa. So, yeah, not even a ban.

These are pretty significant differences. I'm not really sure how they can be considered the same thing. I think you've been misinformed.

 

[leibowde84]

Yeah he tweaked it. But Obama originally wrote it. The fake news was that Trump wrote it. Which he did not.

It wasn't a ban until Trump tweaked it. The "fake news" reported the truth. It was on CNN, MSNBC, Politico, etc. that Obama had another watch list of countries from that part of the world. Big difference was that it wasn't a ban.

 

[Enoch07]

Just because Obama at some point limited immigration from some Middle Eastern countries does not mean that he should be considered the author of every travel ban for ME countries in the future. You need to have a little bit more to go on than that.

There are some stark differences between the Obama-era restrictions and the Trump travel ban.

Threat:
Obama's 2011 restriction on Iraqis was due to a specific threat that has just occurred. (The failed Bowling Green thing).

Trump's is preemptive. There were no imminent or recent attacks by any immigrants or refugees from the countries in his ban.

Range:
Obama's was narrower. It put a pause on processing of Iraqis refugees. Trump's ban was to prevent entry of any non-US citizen from 7 countries. Also note: refugees were still accepted; the process was just slowed.

Timeline:
Obama's was for 6 mo. Trump's is indefinite, in regards to refugees.

Scope:
Obama's temporary ban only applied to Iraqis. Trump's applies to 7 countries. The list you think Trump got the 7 countries from wasn't about travel bans at all: it was about a visa waiver. Basically, there's a list of 38 countries whose citizens are allowed to visit the US for 90 days without a Visa. A 2015 act stated that if a citizen of one of those 38 countries had visited Iraq, Syria, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Libya, or Somalia, then they would no longer qualify for the waiver. They had to get a visa. So, yeah, not even a ban.

These are pretty significant differences. I'm not really sure how they can be considered the same thing. I think you've been misinformed.

Your totally disregarding the 2015 policy Obama wrote, and then Trump enacted. Listed in the article I linked above.

 

[Enoch07]

It wasn't a ban until Trump tweaked it. The "fake news" reported the truth. It was on CNN, MSNBC, Politico, etc. that Obama had another watch list of countries from that part of the world. Big difference was that it wasn't a ban.

A ban on what? It's only a ban on people from certain security risk countries.

 

[Falvlun]

Your totally disregarding the 2015 policy Obama wrote, and then Trump enacted. Listed in the article I linked above.

I fully addressed it. It's the Visa Waiver program. This was not a travel ban or even a restriction. It said that if you had traveled to these 7 countries, you are no longer eligible for the visa waiver program. That means you must apply for a visa to visit. It doesn't mean you were banned at all. Using the same 7 countries doesn't mean Obama wrote or even inspired Trump's travel ban.

Explain how "people who visited these 7 countries must apply for a visa to visit the US" is substantially similar to "people from these 7 countries are not allowed to enter the US for 6mo and refugees from Syria are not allowed to come ever."

Edit:
From your own article, if you don't believe me:

"This is not the same as an outright ban on citizens and dual-citizens of these countries, as the new executive order seems to have instigated

Instead, this list of countries- which is the list of countries referenced by the new order- merely says that if you were, say, from the United Kingdom (and could enter the US under ESTA rather than getting a visa at the embassy) but had visited Iran since 2011, you would not be able to get into America without applying for a full visa."

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news...ation-responsible-muslim-ban-executive-order/

 

[Enoch07]

I fully addressed it. It's the Visa Waiver program. This was not a travel ban or even a restriction. It said that if you had traveled to these 7 countries, you are no longer eligible for the visa waiver program. That means you must apply for a visa to visit. It doesn't mean you were banned at all. Using the same 7 countries doesn't mean Obama wrote or even inspired Trump's travel ban.

Explain how "people who visited these 7 countries must apply for a visa to visit the US" is substantially similar to "people from these 7 countries are not allowed to enter the US for 6mo and refugees from Syria are not allowed to come ever."

Edit:
From your own article, if you don't believe me:

"This is not the same as an outright ban on citizens and dual-citizens of these countries, as the new executive order seems to have instigated

Instead, this list of countries- which is the list of countries referenced by the new order- merely says that if you were, say, from the United Kingdom (and could enter the US under ESTA rather than getting a visa at the embassy) but had visited Iran since 2011, you would not be able to get into America without applying for a full visa."

Read more at: https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news...ation-responsible-muslim-ban-executive-order/

You can dance around it all day but Obama did write this policy. That is fact. This fact was spun by the MSM, into a Trump is banning Muslim because he racist story. That is the fake news part. No matter how much you try to twist it these are the facts.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The law disagrees with you. Defamation - Wikipedia

I should have said in in the Uķ where it is a civil matter not criminal.
Though Scotland has its own law it is also civil.

 

[Enoch07]

I should have said in in the Uķ where it is a civil matter not criminal.
Though Scotland has its own law it is also civil.

Fair enough.

But here it is taken very seriously. Once a reputation is tarnished it is hard to rebuild it.

I have no problems of the media being critical of any politician. But we can do without fabricated lies.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Fair enough.

But here it is taken very seriously. Once a reputation is tarnished it is hard to rebuild it.

I have no problems of the media being critical of any politician. But we can do without fabricated lies.

It is taken no less seriously here but we see no reason to involve the criminal law in a civil matter.

 

[Falvlun]

You can dance around it all day but Obama did write this policy. That is fact. This fact was spun by the MSM, into a Trump is banning Muslim because he racist story. That is the fake news part. No matter how much you try to twist it these are the facts.

I'm not dancing. I am showing you the Obama-era policy and contrasting it with Trump's travel ban. The only thing that is similar between the two is that the same 7 countries are named. (And note: Trump's ban is against any citizen of those countries. The Obama visa waiver policy was for any citizen of 38 countries who had visited one of those 7 countries in a specific time period. So we aren't even talking about the same people effected!)

Do you really not understand the difference between needing to apply for a Visa to visit the US and a ban saying that you can't come here at all?

Perhaps it would help you better understand if you posted the Obama travel ban you think corresponds to Trump's. You won't be able to, because it doesn't exist. But perhaps your failure will help you realize your mistake.

The only thing similar is the 7 countries named, and msm did report on that. They did not report that the bans were the same or that Obama was the author of Trump's travel ban because that is patently false by any basic understanding.

As far as the banning Muslim part, well, Trump himself had called for a ban on Muslims entering the country. Should we just ignore his previous comments and act like they would have no bearing on his actions? Furthermore, Giuliani stated that Trump wanted a "Muslim ban".

""I'll tell you the whole history of it," Giuliani said, as transcribed by The Washington Post. "So when (Trump) first announced it, he said, 'Muslim ban.' He called me up. He said, 'Put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally."

Whether the travel ban was meant to specifically limit Muslim immigrants is up for debate. However, it is not "fake news" to discuss it, to review the previous statements of the politician in the subject, or to see what others had to say. Furthermore, various courts did find evidence to consider this a "Muslim ban". Again, you can disagree with that asssssment, but you can't blame news media for reporting it.

 

[leibowde84]

A ban on what? It's only a ban on people from certain security risk countries.

Again, you said that Obama wrote the ban, which is patently false. What Obama wrote was not a ban. It still allowed refugees to get help. It just increased vetting.

Trump, otoh, completely owns his ban because, unlike Obama's, it is actually a ban. You claimed that Obama's was a ban ... you were wrong.

And, yes, it is a ban on people from 7 countries. Places with huge amounts of refugees that desperately need our help. In my opinion, it is worth taking the risk to help people in such dire need. But, that is my considerate opinion. I've thought about this a lot ... the risks (which are certainly real). But, we pride ourselves as being the "shining city on the hill", in the words of Regan. To live up to that, we have to take risks to help people.

 

[metis]

Complete conjecture, here is what actually happened.

False, and the proof in the pudding is that even his fellow Republicans got on his case for this, as well as the first two court cases that cited his own words to show that his anti-Muslim bigotry was involved in his decision. They certainly didn't see this as "complete conjecture", which should be evident since this was one of Trump's reoccurring themes during the campaign.

 

[metis]

That is the fake news part.

In "America" magazine (Jesuit) a few weeks ago, they cited a survey that found that one of the most alarming trends in American society today is the dramatic increase in politically-correct (partisan) beliefs trumping well-established facts, and your position on this is a prime example. Essentially, you're believing in what you want to believe-- facts be damned.

 

[Enoch07]

I'm not dancing. I am showing you the Obama-era policy and contrasting it with Trump's travel ban. The only thing that is similar between the two is that the same 7 countries are named. (And note: Trump's ban is against any citizen of those countries. The Obama visa waiver policy was for any citizen of 38 countries who had visited one of those 7 countries in a specific time period. So we aren't even talking about the same people effected!)

Do you really not understand the difference between needing to apply for a Visa to visit the US and a ban saying that you can't come here at all?

Perhaps it would help you better understand if you posted the Obama travel ban you think corresponds to Trump's. You won't be able to, because it doesn't exist. But perhaps your failure will help you realize your mistake.

The only thing similar is the 7 countries named, and msm did report on that. They did not report that the bans were the same or that Obama was the author of Trump's travel ban because that is patently false by any basic understanding.

As far as the banning Muslim part, well, Trump himself had called for a ban on Muslims entering the country. Should we just ignore his previous comments and act like they would have no bearing on his actions? Furthermore, Giuliani stated that Trump wanted a "Muslim ban".

""I'll tell you the whole history of it," Giuliani said, as transcribed by The Washington Post. "So when (Trump) first announced it, he said, 'Muslim ban.' He called me up. He said, 'Put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally."

Whether the travel ban was meant to specifically limit Muslim immigrants is up for debate. However, it is not "fake news" to discuss it, to review the previous statements of the politician in the subject, or to see what others had to say. Furthermore, various courts did find evidence to consider this a "Muslim ban". Again, you can disagree with that asssssment, but you can't blame news media for reporting it.

Your arguing the details of the policy though. That has nothing to do with my point of bringing it up. The point is Obama wrote it, not Trump. The MSM lied and said Trump wrote it because he is racist. That is the only reason I brought it up. If you want to argue details of the policy that's fine. But it does not change the fact that Obama wrote it, and the media purposefully lied about that.

 

[Enoch07]

False, and the proof in the pudding is that even his fellow Republicans got on his case for this, as well as the first two court cases that cited his own words to show that his anti-Muslim bigotry was involved in his decision. They certainly didn't see this as "complete conjecture", which should be evident since this was one of Trump's reoccurring themes during the campaign.

Of course some republicans called him out. If you haven't noticed, Trump is not traditional GOP. Especially considering the fact he was a Democrat in the late 80's early 90's. He even went on Oprah where she encouraged him to run for President back then.

 

[Enoch07]

In "America" magazine (Jesuit) a few weeks ago, they cited a survey that found that one of the most alarming trends in American society today is the dramatic increase in politically-correct (partisan) beliefs trumping well-established facts, and your position on this is a prime example. Essentially, you're believing in what you want to believe-- facts be damned.

What you are doing is called projection. I'll talk to ya again in 6 months and ask you about how Muellers investigation panned out and we will see who believes in facts, and who believes in fairy tales.

 

[Falvlun]

Your arguing the details of the policy though. That has nothing to do with my point of bringing it up. The point is Obama wrote it, not Trump. The MSM lied and said Trump wrote it because he is racist. That is the only reason I brought it up. If you want to argue details of the policy that's fine. But it does not change the fact that Obama wrote it, and the media purposefully lied about that.

What did Obama write? Please present what you are referring to.

If you are indeed referring to the Visa Waiver program, then no, you cannot claim that Obama wrote trump's travel ban. It's not details. They are literally two completely different things. I mean, this isn't even a matter of opinion. You are just completely misinformed, and furthermore, unwilling to accept reality when presented with the facts.

 

[Enoch07]

What did Obama write? Please present what you are referring to.

If you are indeed referring to the Visa Waiver program, then no, you cannot claim that Obama wrote trump's travel ban. It's not details. They are literally two completely different things. I mean, this isn't even a matter of opinion. You are just completely misinformed, and furthermore, unwilling to accept reality when presented with the facts.

I linked the article already, and you have even re-linked it. Obama originally wrote the travel ban. Yes, Trump changed it. But the bones of it is from Obama's hand (the countries chosen to be banned).