Benjamin Netanyahu's statement actually offends me. Am I wromg to be offended?

[Bunyip]

So I need to track the logic behind each of your statements and the response? Do you have that much trouble following an adult conversation?

LOL. No, you just need to quote people accurately, rather than give your erm....'unique' spin.

You said "They don't spit on you on the street in Melbourne either, nor do they get rockets fired at them." so I countered by showing the incidence (increasing) of anti-Semitic acts in Australia which would undercut your claim that things are all peaches and cream.

I made no such claim - you really are bad at this.

You made a comment about the liklihood of a Jew being assaulted not because of his religion (a claim that you made no effort to back up, BTW).

Actually I did back it up by referring to Australian crime statistics. I can supply a citation if you wish.

Your response, instead of recognizing that there is a threat, was to diminish the incidents based on numbers as "tiny". You actually, at one point, cited only violent acts as that number which was presented even though the statistic was 7.5 times higher than what you cited.

LOL, No it wasn't - you must be looking at the wrong column.

You reiterated that the population is not subject to a significant number of attacks

Nope, I did not. You have a fantastic imagination though, although it comes across as paranoid.

so I pointed to quotes from the people who actually live there who disagree and say that not only is the number rising (something which you never conceded until post 152) but that it is cause for concern and calls into question your initial premise about the relative safety of living in Australia as a visible Jew.

But that is true, Melbourne is relatively safe compared to just about anywhere else on Earth.

Instead of accepting the testimony of actual people who have to live there you insist that the incidence is tiny.

As your statistic showed.

Now, why would you insist that? Is it because you think that no matter the number, if the impact is as big as they say, there is merit in that? Or is it that you believe that the number, because it is, in your words a "tiny occurrence" still affords Jews there with a lifestyle that is free and comfortable.

Correct, Jews in Melbourne live in a relatively safe community compared to Israel.

I didn't realize that calling the number "tiny" was your way of saying "significant" and "problematic" and "cause for concern."

Erm...it isn't.

So call names. Obfuscate. Avoid the issue.

I have no need for any of those things.

And by trying to point out your version of the numbers, feel free to diminish what the Jewish residents feel as quoted in a number of articles I posted. This isn't about interpretation. This is about what you have said. If you can't keep up, I can't help you with that.

I stand by what i have said, not your imaginative, paranoid interpretations.

 

[rosends]

I made no such claim - you really are bad at this.

so post 141 wasn't you? Got it.

Actually I did back it up by referring to Australian crime statistics. I can supply a citation if you wish.

Yes, you did list some statistics. None that was exactly equivalent, nor any that was substantiated, but hey, why quibble.

LOL, No it wasn't - you must be looking at the wrong column.

hmm...you quoted 20 acts of violence when I mentioned all 3 types of anti-=semitism which amounted to 150. Let me get my calculator. (post 145)

Nope, I did not. You have a fantastic imagination though, although it comes across as paranoid.

"Not significantly different to that of the general population" By that did you mean "still significant even though not significantly different"? My bad...

But that is true, Melbourne is relatively safe compared to just about anywhere else on Earth.

But that's not actually true, nor relevant to the claim of safety in Australia. Taking a simple number per capita is a foolish way of distilling actual situations and creating false parallels in order to advance bizarre theses. That the people living in Australia seem to disagree with you is lost on you. They say they feel less and less safe. You insist that they are more safe than Israel. They wonder why you are making that argument.

Correct, Jews in Melbourne live in a relatively safe community compared to Israel.

Just for giggles, can you cite the statistics on anti-Semitic attacks in Israel? The number of anti-semitic hate crimes per 100,000. This article Anti-Semitism Surging In Israel from 2007 mentions 500 acts per year and the Jewish population is 6.18 million Jews. Compare that to over 300 acts per Australia's 112,000 Jews. Here are some stats (page 15) www.ecaj.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/.../2014_antisemitism_report.pdf

Erm...it isn't.

Ah, so you are again saying that those who live there who think that it is cause for concern are wrong. When in post 152 you claimed that I put words in your mouth and that you never said that people shouldn't worry seems to come into conflict when you say that it isn't cause for concern right here.

I stand by what i have said, not your imaginative, paranoid interpretations.

My interpretations are backed by precisely what you said. Try to keep up.

 

[Bunyip]

so post 141 wasn't you? Got it.

Erm.. the statement you attributed to me can not be found in that post mate.

Yes, you did list some statistics. None that was exactly equivalent, nor any that was substantiated, but hey, why quibble.

hmm...you quoted 20 acts of violence when I mentioned all 3 types of anti-=semitism which amounted to 150. Let me get my calculator. (post 145)

Correct, I referred to acts of violence, not harrassment - you appear to have looked at the wrong column.

"Not significantly different to that of the general population" By that did you mean "still significant even though not significantly different"? My bad...

But that's not actually true, nor relevant to the claim of safety in Australia. Taking a simple number per capita is a foolish way of distilling actual situations and creating false parallels in order to advance bizarre theses. That the people living in Australia seem to disagree with you is lost on you. They say they feel less and less safe. You insist that they are more safe than Israel. They wonder why you are making that argument.
Just for giggles, can you cite the statistics on anti-Semitic attacks in Israel? The number of anti-semitic hate crimes per 100,000. This article Anti-Semitism Surging In Israel from 2007 mentions 500 acts per year and the Jewish population is 6.18 million Jews. Compare that to over 300 acts per Australia's 112,000 Jews.

Ah, so you are again saying that those who live there who think that it is cause for concern are wrong. When in post 152 you claimed that I put words in your mouth and that you never said that people shouldn't worry seems to come into conflict when you say that it isn't cause for concern right here.


My interpretations are backed by precisely what you said. Try to keep up.

LOL. You're a riot. I don't need to 'keep up' with your wildly misguided strawmen.

 

[rosends]

Erm.. the statement you attributed to me can not be found in that post mate.

Really? I'm cutting and pasting: "They don't spit on you on the street in Melbourne either, nor do they get rockets fired at them." 10:08 PM. I don't know what version you have, but that's what keeps appearing in post 141.

Correct, I referred to acts of violence, not harrassment - you appear to have looked at the wrong column.

And I refer to acts of anti-Semitism which imperil a safe life. Your statement (post 141 again) was that people can get "picked on" anywhere. So I give stats about getting picked on in Australia and suddenly you only want to count violence. Interesting. Strange how you ignore all the other acts which people count as anti-Semitism and which cause the people there to be concerned. Oh, that's right. You say they shouldn't be concerned. Got it.

LOL. You're a riot. I don't need to 'keep up' with your wildly misguided strawmen.

Good job lumping the rest together and not responding to any of it. Well done.

 

[Bunyip]

Really? I'm cutting and pasting: "They don't spit on you on the street in Melbourne either, nor do they get rockets fired at them." 10:08 PM. I don't know what version you have, but that's what keeps appearing in post 141.

This is hilarious. Yes mate - that is what I said, nothing like the version you gave in your post 160 and which you attributed to me. Where was the 'peaches and cream' bit? You know, the bit you thought was the point I was making - but you actually made up? My claim that they do not spit on Jews on the streets of Melbourne, nor do they fire rockets at them remains true.Quote]

And I refer to acts of anti-Semitism which imperil a safe life. Your statement (post 141 again) was that people can get "picked on" anywhere. So I give stats about getting picked on in Australia and suddenly you only want to count violence.[/quote] Yeah - I only counted acts of violence when referring to the number of violent acts.

Interesting. Strange how you ignore all the other acts which people count as anti-Semitism and which cause the people there to be concerned. Oh, that's right. You say they shouldn't be concerned. Got it.

LOL Nope, didn't say that. You don't 'keep up' real good do ya?

Good job lumping the rest together and not responding to any of it. Well done.

I told you that I don't need to respond to your strawmen - other than to point out that they are strawmen.

 

[rosends]

This is hilarious. Yes mate - that is what I said, nothing like the version you gave in your post 160 and which you attributed to me. Where was the 'peaches and cream' bit?

So now, you said it. OK then. And your statement that they don't get spit on nor have rockets fired at them was to show that things are BAD there, I guess. No? Was it to show that things are good? In my neck of the woods, a phrase we use for "good" is "peaches and cream." So if your point was that things are relatively good there, then that is what you said. unless you are saying that no spitting or bombs makes things bad.

LOL Nope, didn't say that.

You didn't say what? that people can get "picked on" anywhere? You didn't say "that moron could have walked through the bad part of town in almost any city on earth and got picked on". So when I present a statistic which shows that one can get picked on in Australia and suddenly you only look at violent acts, that seems reasonable to you? Wow. Oh wait, maybe you are claiming you didn't say that they shouldn't be concerned. So in 161 when you confirm that the number of incidences isn't cause for concern, you AREN'T saying that. Fascinating.

By the way, you never explained how you know he was in a bad part of town, or why you call him a moron.

I told you that I don't need to respond to your strawmen - other than to point out that they are strawmen.

Yes, you told me. Of course, that doesn't make a statement accurate simply because you said so, but feel free to use that as an excuse if you want.

 

[Bunyip]

So now, you said it. OK then. And your statement that they don't get spit on nor have rockets fired at them was to show that things are BAD there, I guess. No? Was it to show that things are good? In my neck of the woods, a phrase we use for "good" is "peaches and cream." So if your point was that things are relatively good there, then that is what you said. unless you are saying that no spitting or bombs makes things bad.

You didn't say what? that people can get "picked on" anywhere? You didn't say "that moron could have walked through the bad part of town in almost any city on earth and got picked on". So when I present a statistic which shows that one can get picked on in Australia and suddenly you only look at violent acts, that seems reasonable to you? Wow. Oh wait, maybe you are claiming you didn't say that they shouldn't be concerned. So in 161 when you confirm that the number of incidences isn't cause for concern, you AREN'T saying that. Fascinating.

By the way, you never explained how you know he was in a bad part of town, or why you call him a moron.

Yes, you told me. Of course, that doesn't make a statement accurate simply because you said so, but feel free to use that as an excuse if you want.

I love how you invent BOTH sides of a conversation as you go along. I can't wait to read whatever I have to say next........

 

[rosends]

I love how you invent BOTH sides of a conversation as you go along. I can't wait to read whatever I have to say next?

yeah, direct quotes do seem to throw you off.

 

[Bunyip]

yeah, direct quotes do seem to throw you off.

Direct quotes, I can and will support or defend. The inferences you imaginatively attribute to them I will not.

 

[lunakilo]

Yeah, um, I responded to post 78 in my post 84, pointing out the error in your statement. You didn't address that. What you did say is "No it is NOT Jews being targeted." That pretty much says what it says, don't you think? I can see how you would get tired if all you do is repeat yourself and don't read what others respond with.

A jew was attacked.
Jews ingeneral were not the main target since most of the people attacked were not jews.

 

[LuisDantas]

I wonder if there are any serious, reliable studies about anti-semitism. How significant it truly is, and how distinct from ethnocentrism or xenophoby it might be.

That said, whatever the truth may be, I just don't see how anyone could seriously propose that creating a Jewish territory and making a point of having it be in perpetual military mobilization would be helpful in that regard.

I guess it does create a sense of unity, but it is by the worst, least defensable of all conceivable mechanisms. And it does feed both the suffering and mistrust of the Jewish People.

 

[YmirGF]

Wow, so Danes can get offended too. What next? Offended Canadians?

 

[LuisDantas]

Mexico? The US?

Oh wait you mean the rather low level conflict surrounding Israel.

So it is low level now? Somehow it seemed to be more serious during all those wars and with all those missiles, but what do I know.

Maybe I should just ignore any future claims about how Israel needs to employ its military, since the conflict is so "low level".

 

[Smart_Guy]

"Extremist Islamic terrorism has struck Europe again, this time in Denmark. We send our condolences to the Danish people and to the Jewish community in Denmark. Jews have been murdered again on European soil only because they were Jews and this wave of terrorist attacks – including murderous anti-Semitic attacks – is expected to continue."

I smell bigotry and a speech of hatred in this part of his statement on both Islam and Europe. Such speeches create generalization on Muslims and gives hints on how Europe treated Jews in the past. This seems full of ulterior motives!

I also feel he's trying to make new recruits to the Israeli army by enraging the Jews like that. If this is the case, then I can understand why you're being offended.

 

[Bunyip]

I smell bigotry and a speech of hatred in this part of his statement on both Islam and Europe. Such speeches creates generalization on Muslims and gives hints on how Europe treated Jews in the past. This seems full of ulterior motives!

I also feel he's trying to make new recruits to the Israeli army but enraging the Jews like that. If this is the case, then I can understand why you're being offended.

It does come across like some sort of seige mentality, retreating to within the town walls.

 

[LuisDantas]

Is bigotry a proper word in this case, though, Smart Guy? Whatever faults the Israeli PM may have, he is no stranger to Islamic thought.

One may well suspect the validity and honesty of his goals towards it - I guess it comes with the role, even - and I would never dream of calling him a peacemaker or deny that he is very much a milistarist (arguably not by choice, but a militarist all the same).

But bigotry, in my mind at least, can only exist when one refuses to actually meet that what he is bigoted against.

What I do wonder most of all is how full a realization he has of the ill results of his call for settling in Israel. Public perception matters, and Israel's is not the only one to consider,

That said, if the current available information is at all accurate, and pending some confirmation from the authorities, we still end up having to deal with the actual causes of such sad happenings. And Israeli attitudes are only half of the cause at the very most.

2015 Copenhagen shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[LuisDantas]

It does come across like some sort of seige mentality, retreating to within the town walls.

So it does. And that might be a good idea until perhaps the 18th century. In the 21st it is questionable at the very best. Priorities must be different now.

 

[Bunyip]

Is bigotry a proper word in this case, though, Smart Guy? Whatever faults the Israeli PM may have, he is no stranger to Islamic thought.

One may well suspect the validity and honesty of his goals towards it - I guess it comes with the role, even - and I would never dream of calling him a peacemaker or deny that he is very much a milistarist (arguably not by choice, but a militarist all the same).

But bigotry, in my mind at least, can only exist when one refuses to actually meet that what he is bigoted against.

What I do wonder most of all is how full a realization he has of the ill results of his call for settling in Israel. Public perception matters, and Israel's is not the only one to consider,

That said, if the current available information is at all accurate, and pending some confirmation from the authorities, we still end up having to deal with the actual causes of such sad happenings. And Israeli attitudes are only half of the cause at the very most.

2015 Copenhagen shootings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I just wanted to make the point that whilst the Zionists and nationalists of all kinds play these games, the Jewish diaspora across the world is becoming more secular and moderate. I can see a future where Israel persists as some kind of pariah, fundamentalist state - besieged perpetually. Whilst the great bulk of Jews move on with the rest of us.

I do not see that Zionist and arch nationalism in any form has the same attraction for gen X and Y Jews that it did for their parents.

 

[LuisDantas]

I just wanted to make the point that whilst the Zionists and nationalists of all kinds play these games, the Jewish diaspora across the world is becoming more secular and moderate. I can see a future where Israel persists as some kind of pariah, fundamentalist state - besieged perpetually. Whilst the great bulk of Jews move on with the rest of us.

Let's all hope so. Better yet, let's hope for the nationalist mindset to die worldwide.

 

[Bunyip]

So it does. And that might be a good idea until perhaps the 18th century. In the 21st it is questionable at the very best. Priorities must be different now.

It's very difficult to have a reasoned conversation with a person who thinks the sky is falling.