Biblical Mary!

[Jayhawker Soule]

Translation?!!?!?!?. The Bible was compiled and edited over a period of time between 600 BCE to 300-300 AD without provenance of authorship, first hand witnesses or origin,

That is, indeed, the consensus, but parading it as a certainty is not particularly productive.

 

[shunyadragon]

That is, indeed, the consensus, but parading it as a certainty is not particularly productive.

It is necessary and the 'elephant in the room' consensus. because not often taken into consideration in the contemporary beliefs of Christianity and Islam, In fact it is the root of much of the conflict and the rejection of contemporary knowledge of science and history. The scripture and beliefs of the authors of Christianity and Islam specifically confirms the Divine literal origin of the Pentateuch

In contemporary Judaism there is far more acknowledgement of the limits of the historical accuracy and knowledge of the Torah with a dose of pragmatism in considering scripture and oral traditions as having a Divine Origin, particularly in Reform Judaism.

 

[jimb]

There's no mention of all kinds of things in the bible, including the Coptic Church of Egypt. So what?

So, making claims about a particular denomination being "the first church" is meaningless. This particularly applies to the Catholic denomination.

 

[jimb]

It is necessary and the 'elephant in the room' consensus. because not often taken into consideration in the contemporary beliefs of Christianity and Islam, In fact it is the root of much of the conflict and the rejection of contemporary knowledge of science and history. The scripture and beliefs of the authors of Christianity and Islam specifically confirms the Divine literal origin of the Pentateuch

In contemporary Judaism there is far more acknowledgement of the limits of the historical accuracy and knowledge of the Torah with a dose of pragmatism in considering scripture and oral traditions as having a Divine Origin, particularly in Reform Judaism.

Claiming that Christianity and Islam reject contemporary knowledge of science and history is total nonsense. There are many Christians and Muslims who are scientists and historians.

Your think is so biased it is laughable.

 

[shunyadragon]

Claiming that Christianity and Islam reYou failed to respond to this citation concerning the separate Divine nature God and Jesus,ject contemporary knowledge of science and history is total nonsense. There are many Christians and Muslims who are scientists and historians.

Your think is so biased it is laughable.

Your closed thinking is very obvious and specific, and not laughable, but tragic;

You believe: "only those that believe s you do understand the truth."

You have failed to respond to the following citation documenting the specific and separate Divine nature of God the Father and th eSone Jesus Christ.

As Hebrews 10:12-13 notes, “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.” Because Jesus reigns along with God the Father Almighty who created and rules over the world,

 

[shunyadragon]

Claiming that Christianity and Islam reject contemporary knowledge of science and history is total nonsense. There are many Christians and Muslims who are scientists and historians.

Your think is so biased it is laughable.

Documented by references. You have failed to provide anything to refute my references. The dominat view in Islam is the rejection of the sciences of evolution.

Pleas provide references to document your laughable assertions.

 

[jimb]

There's no mention of all kinds of things in the bible, including the Coptic Church of Egypt. So what?

So, YOU are the one making all kinds of unsubstantiated claims about the Catholic denomination.

 

[jimb]

Your closed thinking is very obvious and specific, and not laughable, but tragic;

You believe: "only those that believe s you do understand the truth."

You have failed to respond to the following citation documenting the specific and separate Divine nature of God the Father and th eSone Jesus Christ.

As Hebrews 10:12-13 notes, “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.” Because Jesus reigns along with God the Father Almighty who created and rules over the world,

You obviously have no understanding of the Trinity.

You are the one who believes that only those who agree with you understand the truth.

 

[jimb]

Documented by references. You have failed to provide anything to refute my references. The dominat view in Islam is the rejection of the sciences of evolution.

Pleas provide references to document your laughable assertions.

Oh, so now, because you are wrong, you're redefining what you said earlier. It's laughable!

 

[shunyadragon]

You obviously have no understanding of the Trinity.

You are the one who believes that only those who agree with you understand the truth.

You did not respond to the specific citation supporting my view.

You do not provide any references to support your assertions as in the prevalent beliefs of Christianity and Islam concerning science and history

It is understood that only those that believe as you do understand the truth, and dishonestly ignore references that do not conform to your understanding.

Do you believe in a literal Divine inspired Pentateuch and the Noah world flood.?

A plain reading of the NT confirms the authors and the Church Fathers believed this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What is the basis for your statement that "Originally all the Churches established by the Apostles were called the Catholic Church"? Read my post immediately above this one.

The fact that by the end of the first century these churches were called the Catholic church, including the famous attribution by Ignatius in his letter to the Smyrneans, chapter 8 -- "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It doesn't matter that Ignatius used the term "Catholic Church" in a letter written in 110 CE. Again (and again!), there is NO MENTION of the Catholic denomination in the Bible

Oh of course it matters what Ignatius says. Things occurred for the church that were not recorded in the Bible. Do you similarly claim that Christians were never thrown to the lions by the Romans? After all, the Bible says nothing of this!

 

[shunyadragon]

So, YOU are the one making all kinds of unsubstantiated claims about the Catholic denomination.

Being described as Catholic (universal) is a claim not a fact going back to the Church Fathers describing Christianity. The Roman Church simply claims they are the one and only ion true Catholic Church.

The littergy of some Protestant churches make references to Catholic referring to Christianity as a whole. As far as Judaism and other religions they do not consider the Roman Church or Christianity as "Catholic."

 

[jimb]

You did not respond to the specific citation supporting my view.

You do not provide any references to support your assertions as in the prevalent beliefs of Christianity and Islam concerning science and history

It is understood that only those that believe as you do understand the truth, and dishonestly ignore references that do not conform to your understanding.

Do you believe in a literal Divine inspired Pentateuch and the Noah world flood.?

A plain reading of the NT confirms the authors and the Church Fathers believed this.

a) I do not have to respond to your specific citations. This is not a court of law.
b) I do not have to provide any references. This is not a court of law.
c) It is understood that only those that believe as you do understand the truth, and dishonestly ignore references that do not conform to your understanding.
d) Unlike yourself, I believe everything in the Bible

 

[jimb]

The fact that by the end of the first century these churches were called the Catholic church, including the famous attribution by Ignatius in his letter to the Smyrneans, chapter 8 -- "Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

Again, you selectively ignore certain facts.

a) The earliest churches were composed almost entirely of Jews. (There were also a few Gentiles, but very few)
b) You cite one letter by Ignatius (in English! ) and choose one word. Is that really your evidence?
c) Again... The Coptic Church of Egypt is the earliest Christian church in the world, going back to around 42 AD. According to Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, as well as Coptic traditions, Saint Mark the evangelist, who wrote the earliest of the four New Testament gospels, was the founder and first bishop of the Church of Alexandria, even before the Church of Rome was established. (source: ancient-origins.net)
d) "... by the end of the first century these churches were called the Catholic church". Which churches?
e) It is irrelevant if a single person wrote "wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church". It is a ludicrous statement. Jesus Christ is not a Catholic!!!

There were (and are) many other Christian denominations. It is the height of arrogance to claim that the Catholic denomination is the only Christian church. There are 2,500,000,000 Christians worldwide, of which roughly half (only!) are Catholics.

 

[metis]

So, making claims about a particular denomination being "the first church" is meaningless. This particularly applies to the Catholic denomination.

So, Jesus lied when he said he would establish his church through the Apostles? Notice that it was put in the singular, not the plural?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Again, you selectively ignore certain facts.

a) The earliest churches were composed almost entirely of Jews. (There were also a few Gentiles, but very few)

Irrelevant. Had the early church been mostly composed of Chinese, it would not change Ignatius' letter.

b) You cite one letter by Ignatius (in English! ) and choose one word. Is that really your evidence?

It's all that is needed.

c) Again... The Coptic Church of Egypt is the earliest Christian church in the world, going back to around 42 AD. According to Bishop Eusebius of Caesarea, as well as Coptic traditions, Saint Mark the evangelist, who wrote the earliest of the four New Testament gospels, was the founder and first bishop of the Church of Alexandria, even before the Church of Rome was established. (source: ancient-origins.net)
d) "... by the end of the first century these churches were called the Catholic church". Which churches?

Yes, all these churches were connected. The oriental orthodox churches, which include the Coptic Church, didn't become independent from the Catholic Church until 451.

e) It is irrelevant if a single person wrote "wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church". It is a ludicrous statement. Jesus Christ is not a Catholic!!!

Of course Jesus wasn't Catholic, or any kind of Christian. Jesus was a Jew who practiced second temple Judaism. You have quite the strawman to knock down there.

There were (and are) many other Christian denominations. It is the height of arrogance to claim that the Catholic denomination is the only Christian church. There are 2,500,000,000 Christians worldwide, of which roughly half (only!) are Catholics.

This is not really the claim I was making. I think you can make a good argument that the Nazarenes (Jewish believers in Jesus in Jerusalem who continued obeying the law including sacrifices) and the churches set up by Paul were antagonistic branches. The Marcionites were similarly another branch.

What I'm claiming is that all those Gentile churches outside of Jerusalem, whether at Colossi or Ephesus or Rome or Thessalonica... were referred to as the Catholic Church by the end of the first century.

And remember, I'm NOT CATHOLIC. I'm not even a Christian. I'm a Jew. I have no dog in this race other than a truthful representation of history.

 

[Kathryn]

So, YOU are the one making all kinds of unsubstantiated claims about the Catholic denomination.

I have never tried to hide who I am.

 

[jimb]

So, Jesus lied when he said he would establish his church through the Apostles? Notice that it was put in the singular, not the plural?

JESUS DOESN'T LIE! His church was established through the Apostles. If you read your Bible, you will find that to be true.

To claim that "His church" is the Catholic denomination is not true. Read some of my earlier posts, starting with #315. Here is a brief excerpt...

The Coptic Church of Egypt is the earliest Christian church in the world, going back to around 42 AD.

(If you follow your language, the Coptic Church of Egypt is the only true church!)

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The Coptic Church of Egypt is the earliest Christian church in the world, going back to around 42 AD.

No it's not.
1. The first church established was the church in Jersualem, not Egypt.
2. There was no oriental orthodox churches, including the coptic church, until they split away from the Catholic church in 451.