Biden 2024. Why, or why not

[Ponder This]

That prosecutor was part of the corrupt government that existed at that time. They wanted military aid and the Obama administration denied them that until they eliminated corrupt officials and held new elections. Ukraine did that and got rid of that corrupt prosecutor, among other officials, and the Ukrainian people elected Zelensky as president. Once they met the requirements of the USA they got military aid. Right wing disinformation ma ngled the story for purposes of duping those who bought their crap, which you seem to have done.

If the Ukraine administration was corrupt, then maybe aid should've been withheld from Ukraine altogether, but instead Biden only got rid of one specific official. With this official out of the way the money was free to go to an otherwise corrupt Ukraine.

So far this investigation has rumor, and no evidence.

I'd say the investigation is more than rumour. They definitely uncovered financial transactions and have continued their investigation into the nature of those transactions. They've subpoenaed Biden and others to testify. The financial transactions themselves merely confirm that Biden received money.

More right wing disinformtion. You should really be careful what you cite here in an open forum of well-informed people. I'm not saying don't read your disinformation, only that it won't fly in this forum.

I don't know where you get the notion that this is disinformation.

That's why we need evidence, not rumors. You use disinformation so you won't have anything reputable and true.

My understanding is that people still don't believe the evidence. For example, it has become clear that some people still dismiss the Hunter laptop evidence.

There is no clear evidence either way. There is a questionable chain of custody for the laptop so it is irrelevant at this point. Besides, who cares, the guy isn't in politics.

It seems that you don't believe information on the laptop is real because of chain of custody, but its information has been corroborated. For example, the communications have been

verified through cryptographic signatures from Google and other technology companies, say two security experts who examined the data at the request of The Washington Post.

The Washington Post is a left leaning publication. Tell me. How deep does your conspiracy theory go that the laptop is disinformation? Is Google in on it too?

Not only did he not break a law in this case, he was doing exactly what he was told to do. He actually had no choice in the matter.

Elected officials are responsible for their choices. The notion that Biden has no choice is false and does not excuse his behavior.
For example, Pence made his own choice not to delay the confirmation of the electoral vote in Congress.

The fact is there was no information on Hunter Biden's laptop that indicate any wrong doing on the part of Joe Biden. I am not saying it was fabricated, I am saying it just wasn't there.

"Wrong doing"? Do you mean illegal behavior? Because I'm not talking about whether things are technically against the law or not.
Meeting with foreign officials at the arrangement of your son is not illegal. And it's also not clear to me if there exists a law against financial payments from foreign powers that go through various entities to be given to family members (family members who do things such as write checks to Joe Biden).

 

[metis]

If the Ukraine administration was corrupt, then maybe aid should've been withheld from Ukraine altogether, but instead Biden only got rid of one specific official. With this official out of the way the money was free to go to an otherwise corrupt Ukraine.

You get your "news" from Fox, right? When I've watched it, I hear much the same nonsense.

It is totally unethical for Fox's talking heads to assume guilt as they constantly do, and they disguise it by coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories so as to deflect from the atrocities that Trump & Co have done or do on a regular basis. A great many Republican spokesmen/women have left the Pub Party, and even more have testified against Trump during the January 6th Hearings.

If you watch Fox, please also watch other much more serious channels, such as PBS NewsHour, CNN, or the major news networks like ABC, NBC, CBS, etc.

 

[fantome profane]

Elected officials are responsible for their choices. The notion that Biden has no choice is false and does not excuse his behavior.

Think it through the other way. What if Biden had not done what he did in this situation. There is a corrupt prosecutor who is not doing his job. The President of the United States wants him removed, the international community wants him removed. Aid to the Ukrainian people, aid that they desperately need, is dependent on him being removed. Now imagine that Biden, the Vice President at the time, takes it on himself to protect this corrupt prosecutor for some reason.

Now to take it further, Biden's son is involved with a Ukrainian firm that is suspected of some illegal activity. But this corrupt prosecutor is leaving them alone. Maybe Biden doesn't want this prosecutor removed, because the next prosecutor might do the job and prosecute the firm his son works at.

When I say Biden had no choice, what I mean is that if he had done anything other than the exact thing he did, it would have been a huge international scandal, a real scandal, not a made up political one. If he had done anything other than what he did it would have been a major political scandal for the Obama administration, and Ukrainian people would have suffered.

 

[fantome profane]

If the Ukraine administration was corrupt, then maybe aid should've been withheld from Ukraine altogether, but instead Biden only got rid of one specific official.

Just because you are obsessed with this "one specific official" does not mean there was only "one specific official. There were a series of requirements that the Ukrainian government needed to meet to get that aid.

 

[F1fan]

If the Ukraine administration was corrupt, then maybe aid should've been withheld from Ukraine altogether,

Ukraine had already lost Crimea to Russia and had the Donbas region under occupation, which was a threat to NATO countries and Ukraine itself. The USA and EU gave Ukraine a chance to eliminate their corrupt government and military aid was the carrot. They did. Ukraine is seeking NATO membership, and they will be a strong ally.

but instead Biden only got rid of one specific official. With this official out of the way the money was free to go to an otherwise corrupt Ukraine.

This is reported by far right wing disinformation media, and can't be taken seriously.

I'd say the investigation is more than rumour. They definitely uncovered financial transactions and have continued their investigation into the nature of those transactions. They've subpoenaed Biden and others to testify. The financial transactions themselves merely confirm that Biden received money.

Nothing illegal so far. Comer's own brother got a loan from him, much in the same way Biden gave his brother a loan. The difference is Biden was out of politics at the time while Comer was a member of congress. Comer lost his mind during the hearing when that nugget was revealed. So still just rumors of criminality, and no evidence. I suggest you avoid your far right wing disinformation media if you want the truth.

I don't know where you get the notion that this is disinformation.

Your comments that are not consistent with reputable reporting. Where else would you get these false ideas except far right wing disinformation media?

My understanding is that people still don't believe the evidence. For example, it has become clear that some people still dismiss the Hunter laptop evidence.

Whatever has been claimed to be evidence is tainted because the laptop has been in so many different hands that there's no way for it to be evidence of anything. You need to read up on chain of custody of evidence.

Let's say you took in your laptop to get work done on it and left it for many months, and then it ended up in the hands of people that don't like you, and they claim it has child pornography on it. Let's say the police get your laptop and do find child pornography on it. Well, you can claim it was planted to smear you, and a clever hacker could make it look as if it was your content. But prosecutors couldn't prove it was yours since the laptop was in the custody of other people before the police got it.

Does this clear it up?

And one more thing, who cares about Hunter Biden?

It seems that you don't believe information on the laptop is real because of chain of custody, but its information has been corroborated. For example, the communications have been

The Washington Post is a left leaning publication. Tell me. How deep does your conspiracy theory go that the laptop is disinformation? Is Google in on it too?

It is still challengable as evidence. Like I noted above, maybe the child pornography is yours, but you can raise doubts in court.

Elected officials are responsible for their choices.

That's why Trump has been indicted four times and facing 91 criminal counts.

The notion that Biden has no choice is false and does not excuse his behavior.
For example, Pence made his own choice not to delay the confirmation of the electoral vote in Congress.

No, the constitution says it HAS to be done on Jan 6. That is why the Trump insurrectionists decided to break in and disrupt the count. Their hope was that it would invalidate the whole election and perhacs Trump remain president. Pence did the right thing.

"Wrong doing"? Do you mean illegal behavior? Because I'm not talking about whether things are technically against the law or not.

Except where it comes to the Bidens.

Meeting with foreign officials at the arrangement of your son is not illegal. And it's also not clear to me if there exists a law against financial payments from foreign powers that go through various entities to be given to family members (family members who do things such as write checks to Joe Biden).

Then let law enforcement do its thing. Trump is in serious trouble.

 

[Ponder This]

Ukraine had already lost Crimea to Russia and had the Donbas region under occupation, which was a threat to NATO countries and Ukraine itself. The USA and EU gave Ukraine a chance to eliminate their corrupt government and military aid was the carrot. They did. Ukraine is seeking NATO membership, and they will be a strong ally.

Ukraine received the $6 billion dollars without having had to eliminate corruption. Biden's condition wasn't to remove Ukraine's corruption; it was to remove one particular official: Shokin.

This is reported by far right wing disinformation media, and can't be taken seriously.

Why do you think it is disinformation that Shokin was removed? Do you doubt that the US money still went to Ukraine? Or do you doubt that Ukraine was still corrupt after Shokin was removed? What makes it disinformation?

Nothing illegal so far. Comer's own brother got a loan from him, much in the same way Biden gave his brother a loan. The difference is Biden was out of politics at the time while Comer was a member of congress. Comer lost his mind during the hearing when that nugget was revealed. So still just rumors of criminality, and no evidence. I suggest you avoid your far right wing disinformation media if you want the truth.

"criminality"? I'm not talking about breaking laws. That's a separate issue. You assume I get everything from right wing media., but I often have no problem quoting left wing media sources here on RF. Can you recommend a particular media you don't regard as disinformation?

Whatever has been claimed to be evidence is tainted because the laptop has been in so many different hands that there's no way for it to be evidence of anything. You need to read up on chain of custody of evidence.

Let's say you took in your laptop to get work done on it and left it for many months, and then it ended up in the hands of people that don't like you, and they claim it has child pornography on it. Let's say the police get your laptop and do find child pornography on it. Well, you can claim it was planted to smear you, and a clever hacker could make it look as if it was your content. But prosecutors couldn't prove it was yours since the laptop was in the custody of other people before the police got it.

Does this clear it up?

The communications have been corroborated by other parties. It's not just because it is on the laptop.

And one more thing, who cares about Hunter Biden?

I'm talking about the parts relevant to Joe Biden. The various pictures and videos on the laptop are not relevant.

It is still challengable as evidence. Like I noted above, maybe the child pornography is yours, but you can raise doubts in court.

I'm not talking about establishing criminality in court for abuses that might not even have laws against them. The topic here is whether or not to vote for Biden in 2024.

That's why Trump has been indicted four times and facing 91 criminal counts.

There's another thread for discussing whether or not to vote for Trump in 2024. I suggest that the existence of indictments against a candidate are not sufficient reason to not vote for a candidate.

No, the constitution says it HAS to be done on Jan 6. That is why the Trump insurrectionists decided to break in and disrupt the count. Their hope was that it would invalidate the whole election and perhacs Trump remain president. Pence did the right thing.

It's nice that you think that Pence did the right thing. If he had chosen differently, I'm sure you would say he did the wrong thing.

Except where it comes to the Bidens.

I've been clear that I am not considering the question of voting for a candidate and not the question of the outcome of a court case.

Then let law enforcement do its thing. Trump is in serious trouble.

Law enforcement will do its thing. Voters will do their thing.

Just because you are obsessed with this "one specific official" does not mean there was only "one specific official. There were a series of requirements that the Ukrainian government needed to meet to get that aid.

The official being removed is what Biden made the aid contingent upon.

Think it through the other way. What if Biden had not done what he did in this situation. There is a corrupt prosecutor who is not doing his job. The President of the United States wants him removed, the international community wants him removed. Aid to the Ukrainian people, aid that they desperately need, is dependent on him being removed. Now imagine that Biden, the Vice President at the time, takes it on himself to protect this corrupt prosecutor for some reason.

Now to take it further, Biden's son is involved with a Ukrainian firm that is suspected of some illegal activity. But this corrupt prosecutor is leaving them alone. Maybe Biden doesn't want this prosecutor removed, because the next prosecutor might do the job and prosecute the firm his son works at.

When I say Biden had no choice, what I mean is that if he had done anything other than the exact thing he did, it would have been a huge international scandal, a real scandal, not a made up political one. If he had done anything other than what he did it would have been a major political scandal for the Obama administration, and Ukrainian people would have suffered.

I don't think you appreciate how corrupt it is, in general, to pay to have an official removed from his appointed role.
Considering it the other way, I don't think anyone would have noticed, if Biden had not decided to have Shokin removed.

You get your "news" from Fox, right? When I've watched it, I hear much the same nonsense.

It is totally unethical for Fox's talking heads to assume guilt as they constantly do, and they disguise it by coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories so as to deflect from the atrocities that Trump & Co have done or do on a regular basis. A great many Republican spokesmen/women have left the Pub Party, and even more have testified against Trump during the January 6th Hearings.

If you watch Fox, please also watch other much more serious channels, such as PBS NewsHour, CNN, or the major news networks like ABC, NBC, CBS, etc.

Actually, I don't get very much news, if any, from Fox, nowadays. I get some from CNN and PBS, but not so much from ABC, NBC,, or CBS recently. I also kind of like reading news from countries other than the US. A lot of times, major news networks don't cover stuff or cover it inadequately.

 

[fantome profane]

The official being removed is what Biden made the aid contingent upon.

Considering it the other way, I don't think anyone would have noticed, if Biden had not decided to have Shokin removed.

You keep repeating obvious falsehoods. Even immediately after being corrected you keep repeating misinformation.

The aid was contingent on a variety of things with the intention of addressing the corruption in Ukraine. But one simple fact, that even you cannot deny, is that Biden was Vice President at the time. Biden did not make the aid continent on anything. Biden did not have the authority to make the aid contingent. Vice Presidents don't have the power to decide U.S. foreign policy. That is a simple undeniable fact.

Biden did not decide to have Victor Shokin removed. That was a decision made by the U.S. government and the international community. That is a simple undeniable fact.

You need to understand the simple basic facts of the situation. Saying that Biden made these decisions is just absurd and makes you look foolish.



(I find it very funny that right now there are conspiracy theorists who believe that Obama is running the U.S. government and Biden is just his puppet. But here we have someone advancing a theory that Biden was in charge during the Obama administration)

 

[Ponder This]

You keep repeating obvious falsehoods. Even immediately after being corrected you keep repeating misinformation.

The aid was contingent on a variety of things with the intention of addressing the corruption in Ukraine. But one simple fact, that even you cannot deny, is that Biden was Vice President at the time. Biden did not make the aid continent on anything. Biden did not have the authority to make the aid contingent. Vice Presidents don't have the power to decide U.S. foreign policy. That is a simple undeniable fact.

Biden did not decide to have Victor Shokin removed. That was a decision made by the U.S. government and the international community. That is a simple undeniable fact.

You need to understand the simple basic facts of the situation. Saying that Biden made these decisions is just absurd and makes you look foolish.



(I find it very funny that right now there are conspiracy theorists who believe that Obama is running the U.S. government and Biden is just his puppet. But here we have someone advancing a theory that Biden was in charge during the Obama administration)

Biden bragged about getting Shokin removed and Biden explained how he went about doing it. This is fact.
Regardless of what delusions you have about how the money was allocated, the simple reality is that Biden took credit for leveraging $1 billlion in U.S. aid to have Shokin removed from office.

I don't subscribe to theories about Biden (or Obama) being puppets. That is to say, I believe both are capable of some independent thought and action and that ultimately each is to be held responsible for his own actions. That evidence suggests that money from foreign powers makes its way into Biden's pockets via family members and shell corporations does not mean that Biden is not responsible for his actions.

 

[fantome profane]

Biden bragged about getting Shokin removed and Biden explained how he went about doing it. This is fact.
Regardless of what delusions you have about how the money was allocated, the simple reality is that Biden took credit for leveraging $1 billlion in U.S. aid to have Shokin removed from office.

Yes he did, and he shouldn’t have. That is Biden’s real crime, he took credit for something that he was not really responsible for.

 

[Ponder This]

Yes he did, and he shouldn’t have. That is Biden’s real crime, he took credit for something that he was not really responsible for.

I think he bears responsibility. I don't think your puppet theory absolves him.

 

[fantome profane]

I think he bears responsibility. I don't think your puppet theory absolves him.

The facts are the facts, regardless of what you choose to think.