Biden, Pence and Trump.... the tale of the classified documents

[We Never Know]

You.
Well, you didn't say it directly but you alluded to it with the question whether Biden and Pence should be given a pass.


Did Trump commit it? Was he given a pass?

Your question should have been whether Biden, Pence and Trump should be given a pass as non of the three are indicted of that crime.

Yes. Should they, Biden and Pence, be given a pass for retaining classified documents they shouldn't have had?

The OP...
The only thing I said they all three did is...see bold

I made this post on a thread yesterday but its seems my post fell victim to the groundhog day disappearance. So I thought I would make it into a thread.....

Biden, Pence and Trump all three had classified documents in unsecure ares that they shouldn't have had.

Biden and Pence claimed they didn't know, stuck to that, cooperated and the records were returned/retrieved (some through a consent to search) with no problem.

Trump knew he had some, denied/lied he had them, tried to get others to lie about them, didn't cooperate, had to have search warrants served to retrieve them, etc.


Now Biden and Pence when compared to Trump don't look bad..... Maybe Trumps actions even helped them look better.

Bottom line is they all three had classified documents in unsecure area's that they shouldn't have had.... Therefore they all three, in reality, commited the same offense. <<note it doesn't say offenses

Should Biden and Pence be given a pass?

 

[HonestJoe]

Good grief!! They all commited the same offense of possessing classified documents in unsecure areas that they shouldn't have had.
Is it really that hard to understand?

Yes, I get that, but all three were treated exactly the same for that offence. Once it was discovered that they had the documents, they were told to return them. Where they promptly and completely did that, it was clearly deemed unnecessary to peruse it any further. If Trump had done that at the outset, he would have been treated the same and we wouldn't be talking about it now.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes. Should they, Biden and Pence, be given a pass for retaining classified documents they shouldn't have had?

No, they should be investigated all the same, but not necessarily charged all the same depending on the circumstances surrounding their possession of those documents determined by the investigation. That's how investigations work.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Where is the criminal intent when you accidently kill someone(say in a car wreck due to bad roads)? People are charged even for accidents that have no intent.

Involuntary manslaughter?

 

[We Never Know]

Involuntary manslaughter?

Which is a charge, correct?

Now read the part of tge post I responded to...
"they only charge you if you show criminal intent"

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I made this post on a thread yesterday but its seems my post fell victim to the groundhog day disappearance. So I thought I would make it into a thread.....

Biden, Pence and Trump all three had classified documents in unsecure ares that they shouldn't have had.

Biden and Pence claimed they didn't know, stuck to that, cooperated and the records were returned/retrieved (some through a consent to search) with no problem.

Trump knew he had some, denied/lied he had them, tried to get others to lie about them, didn't cooperate, had to have search warrants served to retrieve them, etc.

Seems that way...

Now Biden and Pence when compared to Trump don't look bad..... Maybe Trumps actions even helped them look better.

Bottom line is they all three had classified documents in unsecure area's that they shouldn't have had.... Therefore they all three, in reality, commited the same offense.

Well...no.
If we assume the classification and nature of the documents is the same (and we probably shouldn't based on what I've seen), there is still questions around how many documents, how securely they were stored, and whether they were communicated to third parties.

But ultimately his biggest issue is charges of obstruction. As you stated, Pence and Biden cooperated.
It's not unusual for classified documents to be outside facilities (possibly a separate topic) but not complying with repeated requests to return them? That's unusual.

Should Biden and Pence be given a pass?

Depends what you mean by 'a pass'. I think their transgressions are at a level where the voters can make decisions alongside what else they know of them. I wouldn't have indicted either of them, though.

 

[metis]

Bottom line is they all three had classified documents in unsecure area's that they shouldn't have had.... Therefore they all three, in reality, commited the same offense.

Nope, as there's a difference on what they did when the Archives wanted them back, and that's where the crime came in on one of them.

 

[We Never Know]

Nope, as there's a difference on what they did when the Archives wanted them back, and that's where the crime came in on one of them.

Did you come up with that on your own or.... As the OP said...

"Biden and Pence claimed they didn't know, stuck to that, cooperated and the records were returned/retrieved (some through a consent to search) with no problem.

Trump knew he had some, denied/lied he had them, tried to get others to lie about them, didn't cooperate, had to have search warrants served to retrieve them, etc."

 

[SkepticThinker]

Which is a charge, correct?

Now read the part of tge post I responded to...
"they only charge you if you show criminal intent"

I think it's called involuntary manslaughter because there is no criminal intent. That's what I was referring to there.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Did you come up with that on your own or.... As the OP said...

"Biden and Pence claimed they didn't know, stuck to that, cooperated and the records were returned/retrieved (some through a consent to search) with no problem.

Trump knew he had some, denied/lied he had them, tried to get others to lie about them, didn't cooperate, had to have search warrants served to retrieve them, etc."

Here is a summary of the counts, which are listed starting on page 28 of the document embedded below:

• Willful retention of national defense information: This charge, covering counts 1-31, only applies to Trump and is for allegedly storing 31 such documents at Mar-a-Lago.
• Conspiracy to obstruct justice: Trump and Nauta, along with others, are charged with conspiring to keep those documents from the grand jury.
• Withholding a document or a record: Trump and Nauta are accused of misleading one of their attorneys by moving boxes of classified documents so the attorney could not find or introduce them to the grand jury.
• Corruptly concealing a document or record: This pertains to the Trump and Nauta's alleged attempts to hide the boxes of classified documents from the attorney.
• Concealing a document in a federal investigation: They are accused of hiding Trump's continued possession of those documents at Mar-a-Lago from the FBI and causing a false certificate to be submitted to the FBI.
• Scheme to conceal: This is for the allegation that Trump and Nauta hid Trump's continued possession of those materials from the FBI and the grand jury.
• False statements and representations: This count concerns statements that Trump allegedly caused another one of his attorneys to make to the FBI and grand jury in early June regarding the results of the search at Mar-a-Lago.
• False statements and representations: This final count accuses Nauta of giving false answers during a voluntary interview with the FBI in late May.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/09/1181340894/trump-indictment-classified-documents-charges

 

[We Never Know]

Here is a summary of the counts, which are listed starting on page 28 of the document embedded below:

• Willful retention of national defense information: This charge, covering counts 1-31, only applies to Trump and is for allegedly storing 31 such documents at Mar-a-Lago.
• Conspiracy to obstruct justice: Trump and Nauta, along with others, are charged with conspiring to keep those documents from the grand jury.
• Withholding a document or a record: Trump and Nauta are accused of misleading one of their attorneys by moving boxes of classified documents so the attorney could not find or introduce them to the grand jury.
• Corruptly concealing a document or record: This pertains to the Trump and Nauta's alleged attempts to hide the boxes of classified documents from the attorney.
• Concealing a document in a federal investigation: They are accused of hiding Trump's continued possession of those documents at Mar-a-Lago from the FBI and causing a false certificate to be submitted to the FBI.
• Scheme to conceal: This is for the allegation that Trump and Nauta hid Trump's continued possession of those materials from the FBI and the grand jury.
• False statements and representations: This count concerns statements that Trump allegedly caused another one of his attorneys to make to the FBI and grand jury in early June regarding the results of the search at Mar-a-Lago.
• False statements and representations: This final count accuses Nauta of giving false answers during a voluntary interview with the FBI in late May.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/09/1181340894/trump-indictment-classified-documents-charges

Yeah. That's public knowledge. That doesn't change the facts that Biden, Pence and Trump all three had documents they shouldn't have had which is an offence they all three commited.

 

[fantome profane]

I think it's called involuntary manslaughter because there is no criminal intent. That's what I was referring to there.

Not exactly. Maybe I am being pedantic, or it might be relevant.

With involuntary manslaughter there is criminal intent, just not the intent to kill. Like hitting someone with a car for example. You intended to speed, or drive recklessly, or drive under the influence or something. There has to be a crime or the intent to commit a crime. Otherwise it is just death by misadventure.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yeah. That's public knowledge. That doesn't change the facts that Biden, Pence and Trump all three had documents they shouldn't have had which is an offence they all three commited.

If we take a look at what Trump is being actually charged with, we can see that it's a bunch of stuff the other two guys didn't do.
Mystery solved.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not exactly. Maybe I am being pedantic, or it might be relevant.

With involuntary manslaughter there is criminal intent, just not the intent to kill. Like hitting someone with a car for example. You intended to speed, or drive recklessly, or drive under the influence or something. There has to be a crime or the intent to commit a crime. Otherwise it is just death by misadventure.

I think it's relevant. Thanks for the clarification!
I hereby retract my submission of involuntary manslaughter.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I think it's called involuntary manslaughter because there is no criminal intent. That's what I was referring to there.

And even then people are only charged if they are clearly at fault:

"Involuntary manslaughter usually refers to an unintentional killing that results from criminal negligence or recklessness, or from dangerous or impaired driving."

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-charges/involuntary-manslaughter-overview.html

It is a poor analogy since it would be very hard to show that either Biden or Pence acted with criminal neglect. This is just another weak attempt at "whataboutism". (FYI Google spell check recognizes that term)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not exactly. Maybe I am being pedantic, or it might be relevant.

With involuntary manslaughter there is criminal intent, just not the intent to kill. Like hitting someone with a car for example. You intended to speed, or drive recklessly, or drive under the influence or something. There has to be a crime or the intent to commit a crime. Otherwise it is just death by misadventure.

Oh crap. I was late to the thread. Well at least I included a link but this should have been known by the person that brought up involuntary manslaughter. When one uses an analogy one should double check to make sure that it applies.

 

[We Never Know]

If we take a look at what Trump is being actually charged with, we can see that it's a bunch of stuff the other two guys didn't do.
Mystery solved.

Did I say they did the other things Trump did? NOPE

TADA! There never was a mystery

 

[SkepticThinker]

Did I say they did the other things Trump did? NOPE

TADA! There never was a mystery

Well, you seemed pretty confused about it all.

 

[Heyo]

Not exactly. Maybe I am being pedantic, or it might be relevant.

With involuntary manslaughter there is criminal intent, just not the intent to kill. Like hitting someone with a car for example. You intended to speed, or drive recklessly, or drive under the influence or something. There has to be a crime or the intent to commit a crime. Otherwise it is just death by misadventure.

There doesn't have to be a crime.
We have to differentiate between guilt (of a crime) and responsibility. You can be responsible for things you didn't intend nor were reckless. If your dog escapes a (reasonably secure) enclosure and bites someone, you are not guilty of any crime but you are still responsible.

 

[Heyo]

If we take a look at what Trump is being actually charged with, we can see that it's a bunch of stuff the other two guys didn't do.
Mystery solved.

My guess is that @We Never Know doesn't really want to compare Biden and Pence with Trump. (He worded that very confusing.)
The real comparison should be made between Trump, Biden and Pence on one side (who had secret documents in their possession - a crime) and People like Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning on the other. There seems to be a double standard when it comes to handling secret documents.