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Biden, Pence and Trump.... the tale of the classified documents

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
All the changes against Trump, under the 37 count indictment are connected to the Espionage act. They do not take into account the power of the President to declassify. Since the latter is the newer standard, it will get priority for aPresident Trump, if and when this goes to court. All 37 counts are moot by this legal statute priority. This is more for show, to dirty up Trump and raise campaign donations.

Like I said earlier, ex-president Clinton declassified 14% of the classified documents in the National Archives with one swipe of the pen. He may not even seen 1% of these 45 million pages. This presidential power to declassify does require he fill out a form for each page. The forms are something the bean counters at Archives, do after the fact. The Espionage Act, although the older precedent, may still apply to Biden, since he did not have that Presidential power to declassify when his documents went missing as Senator and VP.

Some of the gossip about what was in Trumps classified documents suggested nuclear codes. These codes are only used for a short time and replaced so the enemy can never know which code is in use. If Trump had old codes, they are on longer active, nor will they ever be active again; keep sake.

If you read a classified document, you will still have the data in your memory. The paper copy is needed either if you are trying to prove authenticity, for fun and profit, or to prevent shady lawyers from denying what is the truth. Without document proof, it harder to sell national secrets and much easier for lawyers to create reasonable doubt; he said and she said. This is why my guess is Trump had intelligence from patriots that was damaging to the Swamp, and they needed plausible deniability if the crap hit the fan. This is also why the FBI and Justice Departments have been foot dragging paper copies of data.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Well, you seemed pretty confused about it all. :shrug:
Nope. You seemed confused. I was pretty clear with it all. From the OP...

Biden, Pence and Trump all three had classified documents in unsecure ares that they shouldn't have had.

Having those documents is an offence, which is what they all three have in common.

See post #6

Fun fact. Having them was illegal for all three of them(especially in unsecure area's).

 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Did you come up with that on your own or.... As the OP said...
I follow the news very carefully from multiple sources, plus I'm quite familiar with the law in general because of my profession. Even though I've been retired for 20 years now, I still don't stop studying. And in this case, the difference is obvious.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Nope. You seemed confused. I was pretty clear with it all. From the OP...

Biden, Pence and Trump all three had classified documents in unsecure ares that they shouldn't have had.

Having those documents is an offence, which is what they all three have in common.

See post #6

Fun fact. Having them was illegal for all three of them(especially in unsecure area's).

That isn't the offence Trump was charged with. None of them were charged for that offence, including Trump.

Trump was charged with things that demonstrate criminal intent like conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding and concealing documents, lying about those documents, scheming to conceal the documents, trying to get his lawyers to lie for him, etc., etc.
You know, like the stuff he obviously did on purpose, according to the evidence, rather than just accidentally having classified documents in unsecure areas.

By the way, Trump's "insecure areas" were areas where the hundreds or thousands of people coming and going from Mar-A-Lago could access them. Joe Biden or Mike Pence having some documents in their garage, or whatever, is hardly comparable. Plus, apparently Trump is on tape bragging about and showing said classified documents to people. Biden and Pence haven't done that either.

This comparison that is attempting to be made between these men is not equal in any sense of the word.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
All the changes against Trump, under the 37 count indictment are connected to the Espionage act. They do not take into account the power of the President to declassify.
The president can only declassify things when president, which he admitted in a recorded conversation he knew about.
All 37 counts are moot by this legal statute priority. This is more for show, to dirty up Trump and raise campaign donations.
Nonsense, thus you really don't know what you're talking about. Since when did you become judge & jury, even more so than the grand jury that actually indicted him? Let's wait and see what evidence is presented and what the jury determines, OK?

Simply put, you are not in tune with the Constitution.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
That isn't the offence Trump was charged with. None of them were charged for that offence, including Trump.

Trump was charged with things that demonstrate criminal intent like conspiracy to obstruct justice, withholding and concealing documents, lying about those documents, scheming to conceal the documents, trying to get his lawyers to lie for him, etc., etc.
You know, like the stuff he obviously did on purpose, according to the evidence, rather than just accidentally having classified documents in unsecure areas.

By the way, Trump's "insecure areas" were areas where the hundreds or thousands of people coming and going from Mar-A-Lago could access them. Joe Biden or Mike Pence having some documents in their garage, or whatever, is hardly comparable. Plus, apparently Trump is on tape bragging about and showing said classified documents to people. Biden and Pence haven't done that either.

This comparison that is attempting to be made between these men is not equal in any sense of the word.
Did they all three have documents that they shouldn't have had?

They all three commited the same offense of retaining classified material.(that's were the should they get pass comes in)

Does my post mention any charges?

Does my post mention how Biden and Pence cooperarated and Trump didn't?

I made this post on a thread yesterday but its seems my post fell victim to the groundhog day disappearance. So I thought I would make it into a thread.....

Biden, Pence and Trump all three had classified documents in unsecure ares that they shouldn't have had.

Biden and Pence claimed they didn't know, stuck to that, cooperated and the records were returned/retrieved (some through a consent to search) with no problem.

Trump knew he had some, denied/lied he had them, tried to get others to lie about them, didn't cooperate, had to have search warrants served to retrieve them, etc.



Now Biden and Pence when compared to Trump don't look bad..... Maybe Trumps actions even helped them look better.

Bottom line is they all three had classified documents in unsecure area's that they shouldn't have had.... Therefore they all three, in reality, commited the same offense.

Should Biden and Pence be given a pass?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Did they all three have documents that they shouldn't have had?
All of them had documents that they shouldn't have had.
None of them were charged with "having documents that they shouldn't have had."

They all three commited the same offense of retaining classified material.(that's were the should they get pass comes in)
Who cares? None of them were charged with that. Including Trump.
Does my post mention any charges?

Does my post mention how Biden and Pence cooperarated and Trump didn't?
I have to ask, what on earth is your point then, in pointing out that all three had documents they shouldn't have had? Those aren't the actions under discussion, as I've pointed out.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
All of them had documents that they shouldn't have had.
None of them were charged with "having documents that they shouldn't have had."


Who cares? None of them were charged with that. Including Trump.

I have to ask, what on earth is your point then, in pointing out that all three had documents they shouldn't have had? Those aren't the actions under discussion, as I've pointed out.

They all three commited the same offense of retaining classified documents(all were out of office). None were charged with said offense. To charge Trump they would also had to charge Biden and Pence.

Maybe, just maybe they didn't want to charge Biden and Pence, therefore they didn't charge Trump either.

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material
 
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SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
They all three commited the same offense of retaining classified documents. None were charged with said offense. To charge Trump they would also had to charge Biden and Pence.

Maybe, just maybe they didnt want to charge Biden and Pence, therefore they didnt charge Trump either.

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material
So your point is that maybe they only wanted to charge Trump?

It looks to me like they realize that sometimes people mistakenly take home documents they shouldn't have, and gave everyone the benefit of the doubt on that and asked for them back. Everyone gave them back EXCEPT Trump who instead withheld the documents, hid and re-hid the documents, lied about the documents, ordered his lawyers to lie about the documents, cheated, obstructed and lied again, when asked for them back. I think that's the big huge glaring difference here. Of course, this has already been pointed out umpteen times in the thread.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
So your point is that maybe they only wanted to charge Trump?

It looks to me like they realize that sometimes people mistakenly take home documents they shouldn't have, and gave everyone the benefit of the doubt on that and asked for them back. Everyone gave them back EXCEPT Trump who instead withheld the documents, hid and re-hid the documents, lied about the documents, ordered his lawyers to lie about the documents, cheated, obstructed and lied again, when asked for them back. I think that's the big huge glaring difference here. Of course, this has already been pointed out umpteen times in the thread.
"So your point is that maybe they only wanted to charge Trump?"

Is english your second language?

They couldn't charge Trump without also charging Biden and Pence.

Maybe, just maybe they didn't want to charge Biden and Pence, therefore they didn't charge Trump either.


Better yet, you tell me why none were charged with retaining classified material.

 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
"So your point is that maybe they only wanted to charge Trump?"

Is english your second language?
Nope, it's my first language. Your point isn't as clear as you seem to think it is.
They couldnt charge Trump without also charging Biden and Pence.

Maybe, just maybe they didnt want to charge Biden and Pence, therefore they didnt charge Trump either.
Based on what, your empty speculation here? Why would they want to do that?
Do you not see the massive difference between having documents you shouldn't have and all the stuff Trump was actually charged with?
Better yet, you tell me why none were charged with retaining classified material.

I think I just did.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They couldnt charge Trump without also charging Biden and Pence.
They could however charge Trump for obstruction of justice, and not the others, because the others did not commit that crime. The charges against him include willfully retaining national defense secrets in violation of the Espionage Act, making false statements and a conspiracy to obstruct justice. Neither Biden nor Pence committed any of those crimes.

This is not a case of letting them go for those same crimes. They didn't do any of those things! If they had, and were not charged, then you'd have an argument. But since they did not do those things, what is the inconsistency here? Why is this not overwhelming clear to you at this point?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Nope, it's my first language. Your point isn't as clear as you seem to think it is.

Based on what, your empty speculation here? Why would they want to do that?
Do you not see the massive difference between having documents you shouldn't have and all the stuff Trump was actually charged with?

I think I just did.

Put Trumps other charges aside for a minute because it all started with this offense.....



Which Trump, Biden and Pence all commited but none were charged with. So in other words if Trump had cooperated like Biden and Pence, none of the three would be charged at all for retaining classified documents. Are they above the law?
 

We Never Know

No Slack
They could however charge Trump for obstruction of justice, and not the others, because the others did not commit that crime. The charges against him include willfully retaining national defense secrets in violation of the Espionage Act, making false statements and a conspiracy to obstruct justice. Neither Biden nor Pence committed any of those crimes. This is not a case of letting them go for those same crimes. They didn't do any of those things!

If they had, and were not charged, then you'd have an argument. But since they did not do those things, what is the inconsistency here? Why is this not overwhelming clear to you at this point?

Yes we all know what Trump is charged with and why.

Why were none charged with retaining classified documents?

 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Put Trumps other charges aside for a minute because it all started with this offense.....



Which Trump, Biden and Pence all commited but none were charged with. So in other words if Trump had cooperated like Biden and Pence, none of the three would be charged at all for retaining classified documents. Are they above the law?
Probably if Trump had co-operated like the other two, he wouldn't be in this mess. I've already addressed everything else you've said.
I still don't see your point. Looks like I'm not the only one.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Put Trumps other charges aside for a minute because it all started with this offense.....



Which Trump, Biden and Pence all commited but none were charged with. So in other words if Trump had cooperated like Biden and Pence, none of the three would be charged at all for retaining classified documents. Are they above the law?

I don't know if they for that offense are above the law. You have to look at the general case law for similar cases and figure it out, if you want to.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
They could however charge Trump for obstruction of justice, and not the others, because the others did not commit that crime. The charges against him include willfully retaining national defense secrets in violation of the Espionage Act, making false statements and a conspiracy to obstruct justice. Neither Biden nor Pence committed any of those crimes.

This is not a case of letting them go for those same crimes. They didn't do any of those things! If they had, and were not charged, then you'd have an argument. But since they did not do those things, what is the inconsistency here? Why is this not overwhelming clear to you at this point?
But all some hear are the false equivocates on Fox and other right-wing sources, so thanks for posting the above to again clarify what the real difference is between Biden & Pence versus the Donald.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Probably if Trump had co-operated like the other two, he wouldn't be in this mess. I've already addressed everything else you've said.
I still don't see your point. Looks like I'm not the only one.
"Probably if Trump had co-operated like the other two, he wouldn't be in this mess"

Right. None would have been charged for retaining classified documents. Why?
 
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