Birmingham Muslims pull their kids out of LGBT-inclusive lessons

[Kangaroo Feathers]

They just don't know any better.

I don't accept that. Genuine ignorance is understandable and forgivable, but willful ignorance is neither. And the people I'm discussing are willfully ignorant.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

The path towards modern human rights for all.

You seem to be suggesting that there is only one path - I would suggest otherwise.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Why does an 8 year old need to know that "gays exist"?

1. Because it's a fact of life and 'freedom of religion' does not entitle you to your own facts;
2. They already know that straight people exist;
3. Telling them LGBT people exist is not inherently harmful;
4. Because this curriculum will help counter the (mostly) Islamic nonsense that gays are some sort of deviants the kids will be fed in the churches/mosques/synagogues;

So far as I can tell; the only basis for objecting to this curriculum comes from wilful ignorance; a misunderstanding of the curriculum; buying into homophobic 'gay indoctrination' myths; the fact that parents want to protect their child and their religion; a notion (which nobody says out loud) that gay people are icky and are something children need to be kept away from.

Everything is so black and white to you. You are either a Muslim hater or an LBGT hater. I am neither.

As someone with gay close family members I certainly have nothing but admiration for them.
Where we differ is that I don't tar all Muslims with the same brush

I think you will find that most 'left wing' people are pro LGBT and will defend Muslims against the unfair press it gets.

NAN has hit on an interesting contradiction though. The control left would be up in arms about this whole Parkfield thing if it had been started by Christians or the majority of protesters were Christians. But the fact remains it has been started and is mostly crewed by Muslim parents, and the control left have issued barely a word. There are websites like Pink News where LGBTs are understandably upset about this and are venting their frustrations in the comments but they're effectively being tone-policed by other LGBTs accusing them of Islamophobia.

Do you believe in civil rights?

I appreciate this wasn't originally directed at myself but I'd like to engage with this.

I do. Can you elaborate further on why you asked the question?

 

[sooda]

1. Because it's a fact of life and 'freedom of religion' does not entitle you to your own facts;
2. They already know that straight people exist;
3. Telling them LGBT people exist is not inherently harmful;
4. Because this curriculum will help counter the (mostly) Islamic nonsense that gays are some sort of deviants the kids will be fed in the churches/mosques/synagogues;

So far as I can tell; the only basis for objecting to this curriculum comes from wilful ignorance; a misunderstanding of the curriculum; buying into homophobic 'gay indoctrination' myths; the fact that parents want to protect their child and their religion; a notion (which nobody says out loud) that gay people are icky and are something children need to be kept away from.




NAN has hit on an interesting contradiction though. The control left would be up in arms about this whole Parkfield thing if it had been started by Christians or the majority of protesters were Christians. But the fact remains it has been started and is mostly crewed by Muslim parents, and the control left have issued barely a word. There are websites like Pink News where LGBTs are understandably upset about this and are venting their frustrations in the comments but they're effectively being tone-policed by other LGBTs accusing them of Islamophobia.




I appreciate this wasn't originally directed at myself but I'd like to engage with this.

I do. Can you elaborate further on why you asked the question?

Wow.. Do you have young children? Do you let them watch R rated movies? I am neither a Muslim nor overly religious. I just think there is such a thing as age appropriate.. and little kids have so much to learn they shouldn't be burdened (or exposed) to adult issues too early.

 

[Notanumber]

The trouble with taking this attitude is that Muslims just become 'entrenched', they feel persecuted and the extremists are encouraged.

It is not a quick process but time is a great healer.

Are we supposed to wait another 1400 years?

Give Islam an inch and it will take a mile.

 

[Notanumber]

Do you believe in civil rights?

Yes, but does Islam believe in civil rights?

 

[sooda]

Are we supposed to wait another 1400 years?

Give Islam an inch and it will take a mile.

Do you know a single Muslim.. male or female?

 

[sooda]

Yes, but does Islam believe in civil rights?

Yes, subject to a conservative culture ...

 

[Notanumber]

Why? Do you know any Muslims? Have you ever sat and talked with Muslims or had dinner with Muslims?

No doubt, there are some very nice Muslims that are genuine people but their ideology is seriously flawed.

 

[sooda]

No doubt, there are some very nice Muslims that are genuine people but their ideology is seriously flawed.

Do you understand the ideology? Muslims are not monolithic, you know?

 

[Altfish]

NAN has hit on an interesting contradiction though. The control left would be up in arms about this whole Parkfield thing if it had been started by Christians or the majority of protesters were Christians. But the fact remains it has been started and is mostly crewed by Muslim parents, and the control left have issued barely a word. There are websites like Pink News where LGBTs are understandably upset about this and are venting their frustrations in the comments but they're effectively being tone-policed by other LGBTs accusing them of Islamophobia.

Oh yes, this is the 'Corbyn Left' that I referred to previously; they have some seriously mixed up ideas and I disagree with most. If you are for women's rights you cant have males dictating what women wear. Or limiting what they can learn about in the 21st Century; children need to have all opportunities to follow the path they want; not just the path dictated by their parents.

 

[sooda]

Oh yes, this is the 'Corbyn Left' that I referred to previously; they have some seriously mixed up ideas and I disagree with most. If you are for women's rights you cant have males dictating what women wear. Or limiting what they can learn about in the 21st Century; children need to have all opportunities to follow the path they want; not just the path dictated by their parents.

Are you assuming that Muslim women don't want to wear and Abaya ?

 

[Altfish]

Are we supposed to wait another 1400 years?

Give Islam an inch and it will take a mile.

And that's where we diverge. There are Muslims in our office that I know well; I know plenty of others in my industry (Construction) - I recognise nothing that you attribute to them in the people I know. Some of the women I know wear head coverings but only the shawl.
Give it a couple of generations and their children will relax the Muslim rules further.
Try to surpress them and you lead to discord and violence - but that is what feeds the far right - "we must have an enemy" be it Muslims, the EU, Mexicans, immigrants, etc etc.

 

[Altfish]

Are you assuming that Muslim women don't want to wear and Abaya ?

Not at all; and they look very smart. I have to wear a suit sometimes at work, I do so reluctantly knowing I can get my shorts on later.

 

[Altfish]

Wow.. Do you have young children? Do you let them watch R rated movies? I am neither a Muslim nor overly religious. I just think there is such a thing as age appropriate.. and little kids have so much to learn they shouldn't be burdened (or exposed) to adult issues too early.

I do (or did) have young children; I took my 10-year old to see Saving Private Ryan which (IIRC) was a 12-year old film; I do my own risk assessment because it was important for him to know about war.
I'm more concerned when young kids are given smart phones.

 

[Notanumber]

And that's where we diverge. There are Muslims in our office that I know well; I know plenty of others in my industry (Construction) - I recognise nothing that you attribute to them in the people I know. Some of the women I know wear head coverings but only the shawl.
Give it a couple of generations and their children will relax the Muslim rules further.
Try to surpress them and you lead to discord and violence - but that is what feeds the far right - "we must have an enemy" be it Muslims, the EU, Mexicans, immigrants, etc etc.

Islam is all about the submission of non-Muslims.

That has never changed over the last 1400 years and it never will.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Wow.. Do you have young children? Do you let them watch R rated movies? I am neither a Muslim nor overly religious. I just think there is such a thing as age appropriate.. and little kids have so much to learn they shouldn't be burdened (or exposed) to adult issues too early.

I have a young child. I don't let her watch R rated movies, but she knows what homosexuals are. You're rather engaging a false dichotomy here. Sensible discussion about sexual orientation with children need not be prurient. Further, IMHO, the existence of same sex relationships and various sexual orientations is hardly an "adult issue".

 

[sooda]

I have a young child. I don't let her watch R rated movies, but she knows what homosexuals are. You're rather engaging a false dichotomy here. Sensible discussion about sexual orientation with children need not be prurient. Further, IMHO, the existence of same sex relationships and various sexual orientations is hardly an "adult issue".

In time.. Not in primary school.. and I talked to my children about these things.. I didn't leave it to some curriculum in a one size fits all.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I do (or did) have young children; I took my 10-year old to see Saving Private Ryan which (IIRC) was a 12-year old film; I do my own risk assessment because it was important for him to know about war.
I'm more concerned when young kids are given smart phones.

IMHO often when people talk about "protecting children from adult concepts" what they really mean is "discussing this with my kids makes me uncomfortable". I certainly understand that. It makes me uncomfortable discussing sexual matters with my daughter. I was as surprised as anyone to find out that it bothered me, but here we are. But even though it does bother me, I still do it, because sometimes being a good parent means dealing with situations that make you uncomfortable, if it's for the long term wellbeing of the child. Ultimately, I'd much prefer my child gets sound information from me or a teacher and have to endure a 5 minute uncomfortable conversation, than avoid the uncomfortable conversation and have her learn about sex in rumours and stories from the little monsters on the playground.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

In time.. Not in primary school.. and I talked to my children about these things.. I didn't leave it to some curriculum in a one size fits all.

Why not in primary school? Why is your assumed default that kids can't handle knowing that homosexual people exist? And if you think the average child can make it to highschool without hearing about such concepts from their classmates, I respectfully call you naiive.

I remember the first time I heard the word "gay" used to refer to homosexuality. I was in year 3 and had just turned 8. I went home, asked my Dad about it and to his credit (I assume he was uncomfortable discussing it, but he did it any way) he explained the basics in a no nonsense, straight forward way. In 1986.