Birmingham Muslims pull their kids out of LGBT-inclusive lessons

[Altfish]

Let's break this down...

You called it a real free speech issue when you should have been calling it hate speech.

Hate speech is speech that incites violence. As far as I am aware they may be somewhat intimidating but they are not violent...unlike virtually all of the right wing marches of late. Another 6 or more arrested on Friday I note.

You say that you have absolutely no trouble with protest marches, so does that mean that you believe in street protests against LGBT.

I believe in protest marches; yes, I do have problems with marches against LGBT, BUT I don't want those marches banned, I want counter marches, debate and discussion showing them to be wrong.
I don't agree with UKIP or Britain First marches but I don't want them banned.

Let these marches continue and prove who the dinosaurs are.

Does a religion have the right to be homophobic in the UK?

Unfortunately it does. It also has the right to be misogynous which I also disagree with. Religion has too many rights and privilidges that I find unfair. That's why I am a member of Humanist UK and fight against such things.

Have you no sympathy for the head teacher that was persecuted by the religion that you defend?

Immense sympathy, and the authorities and politicians and governors should do everything to support and protect her (?)

You claim to be for free speech but it is very obvious you are only for 'your kind' of free speech.

 

[sooda]

A primary school in Birmingham is at the centre of a furore surrounding the teaching of lessons designed to teach children about social diversity. This doesn't just cover LGBT but also covers things like ethnicity, religion & different family compositions. Some kids at the school live with one parent, some live with two parents of the same sex etc

The issue started when Fatima Shah, a Muslim parent began objecting to 'No Outsiders'; a series of lessons designed by 'out' teacher Andrew Moffat. No Outsiders reinforces the innate desire of children to be accepting and tolerant. Shah was worried that her kids were too young to be taught about these subjects; claiming that they amount to 'promoting homosexuality' and 'indoctrinating our kids to be gay' and are not 'age appropriate'. One of the other arguments she also put forward is ' children are being told it's OK to be gay yet 98% of children at this school are Muslim. It's a Muslim community'. Roughly 400 parents have barely consulted with Parkfield Community School and have instead signed a petition calling for the lessons to be dropped from the curriculum.

They've also withdrawn circa 600 kids which is approximately 80% of the pupil population in protest.

To make matters worse, Shabana Mahmood, Labour MP for Birmingham Ladywood, has come out in support of the parents, claiming there is no consultation taking place.

Shabana Mahmood on Twitter

This is actually untrue as a letter published by the school makes clear: they're planning to hold various meetings with parents throughout the next half term - presumably to let parents view the lesson material for themselves. This was the result of a meeting held roughly a week before Mahmood claimed there has been no consultation.

Additionally, Mahmood demands that the pupils' parents' religious beliefs be respected with regard to the curriculum. She is referring to a clause in certain laws passed by the government which grant exemptions from inclusive education on religious grounds; this was essentially added to ensure the Lords Spiritual did not vote down the bill on the basis that Church of England schools would have to host these lessons or ones like them.

The more cynical part of me does wonder if Mahmood's support for the parents stems in part because she is Muslim; but I need to balance this with the fact Mahmood has apparently

This whole situation does beg the following questions:

1. Given that LGBT people exist and some Parkfield kids may even have LGBTs friends/family, what age do these parents think is appropriate for the children to learn they exist;
2. Whose rights should take precedence? The rights of religious parents to ensure their children are not taught contrary to their religious beliefs or the rights of the kids to a balanced education?

Primary school is a bit young ,don't you think?

 

[sooda]

How about this, religious fundamentalists don't get to warp public school curricula?

Did you teach your children about gays in grammar school?

 

[Altfish]

Primary school is a bit young ,don't you think?

No, I don't.

They need to understand that all the kids at their school will not necessarily have a mum and a dad; some will have two mums and some two dads. They also need to learn that that is fine.

They are not talking about the mechanics of gay sex; the lessons are in 'relationships', learning respect and friendship and the likes.
Too many of the Muslims (and other religions) that I've spoken with talk in terms of 'indoctrination' and use phrases that indicate they have never heard a lesson or even asked about a lesson. It is concerning that they do not want to learn about an aspect of British life.

 

[Altfish]

Did you teach your children about gays in grammar school?

In the UK we teach our kids about different types of relationships. They don't have lessons about gays.

 

[sooda]

No, I don't.

They need to understand that all the kids at their school will not necessarily have a mum and a dad; some will have two mums and some two dads. They also need to learn that that is fine.

They are not talking about the mechanics of gay sex; the lessons are in 'relationships', learning respect and friendship and the likes.
Too many of the Muslims (and other religions) that I've spoken with talk in terms of 'indoctrination' and use phrases that indicate they have never heard a lesson or even asked about a lesson. It is concerning that they do not want to learn about an aspect of British life.

That's quite different, don't you think?

I don't think I was at all aware of gays until I was well up into my teens.. I knew some boys were effeminate, but didn't connect that to sexuality.

However, I did know that there were differences in families.

Muslims are not prudes nor particularly naïve .. maybe the course has been misrepresented for effect or to evoke a negative response.

 

[Altfish]

That's quite different, don't you think?

I don't think I was at all aware of gays until I was well up into my teens.. I knew some boys were effeminate, but didn't connect that to sexuality.

However, I did know that there were differences in families.

Muslims are not prudes nor particularly naïve .. maybe the course has been misrepresented for effect or to evoke a negative response.

Yes, but at primary school and senior school they talk of 'relationships, it is not 'how to do it' or 'you must do it'; it is just that the lessons are along the lines of 'not every family is built on a heterosexual relationship'
There is a lot of Project Fear within the Muslim leaders, selling false scare stories to their congregations.

 

[sooda]

Yes, but at primary school and senior school they talk of 'relationships, it is not 'how to do it' or 'you must do it'; it is just that the lessons are along the lines of 'not every family is built on a heterosexual relationship'
There is a lot of Project Fear within the Muslim leaders, selling false scare stories to their congregations.

Why would you have to even use the words "heterosexual" relationships? Do primary school children have to know that if there are two mothers in their household, their mothers are having sex?

I am not a Muslim, but I surely wouldn't want my 8 or 10 year old focused on sex between their caregivers and parental figures.

 

[Altfish]

Why would you have to even use the words "heterosexual" relationships? Do primary school children have to know that if there are two mothers in their household, their mothers are having sex?

I am not a Muslim, but I surely wouldn't want my 8 or 10 year old focused on sex between their caregivers and parental figures.

I wasn't indicating that anything about sex between their parents was being taught; I was using the word 'heterosexual' purely to distinguish from those in same sex relationships.
You are twisting my words.

 

[sooda]

I wasn't indicating that anything about sex between their parents was being taught; I was using the word 'heterosexual' purely to distinguish from those in same sex relationships.
You are twisting my words.

No .. I wasn't twisting your words. I used your words. I would say they should avoid any teaching that two women who are raising their children together are necessarily homosexual.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Primary school is a bit young ,don't you think?

A bit young to learn that same-sex couples exist (and raise children)? Not at all. These kids will probably be experiencing this already, or they will later as they progress through their education. It's important to help them understand that this is a fact of life and is not inherently harmful.

The same applies for learning that their are families out there consisting of children who

• Only live with one parent;
• Live with other relatives instead of their parents;
• Are orphans;
• Are of a different religion;
• Are of a different ethnicity;
• Speak a different language;
• Might possess some form of vulnerability such as blindness, deafness etc;

No Outsiders teaches the kids about all of these things. Yet for all their denials of homophobia, the (predominantly) Muslim parents are only protesting about one (misrepresented) aspect of the curriculum: namely that gay people exist. The only reason that the parents seem to be putting forth is that it's against Islam, but implicitly they're admitting they don't want their children being taught anything that could compromise the religious conditioning they'll be subjected to at home, in the mosque or madrassa.

The lessons don't touch on the mechanics of any kind of sex. Even if they did, it's hardly likely to turn anybody gay; that's just the old 'homosexual indoctrination' trope being trotted out which is homophobic bunk.

 

[sooda]

A bit young to learn that same-sex couples exist (and raise children)? Not at all. These kids will probably be experiencing this already, or they will later as they progress through their education. It's important to help them understand that this is a fact of life and is not inherently harmful.

The same applies for learning that their are families out there consisting of children who

• Only live with one parent;
• Live with other relatives instead of their parents;
• Are orphans;
• Are of a different religion;
• Are of a different ethnicity;
• Speak a different language;
• Might possess some form of vulnerability such as blindness, deafness etc;

No Outsiders teaches the kids about all of these things. Yet for all their denials of homophobia, the (predominantly) Muslim parents are only protesting about one (misrepresented) aspect of the curriculum: namely that gay people exist. The only reason that the parents seem to be putting forth is that it's against Islam, but implicitly they're admitting they don't want their children being taught anything that could compromise the religious conditioning they'll be subjected to at home, in the mosque or madrassa.

The lessons don't touch on the mechanics of any kind of sex. Even if they did, it's hardly likely to turn anybody gay; that's just the old 'homosexual indoctrination' trope being trotted out which is homophobic bunk.

Why does an 8 year old need to know that "gays exist"?

 

[Altfish]

No .. I wasn't twisting your words. I used your words. I would say they should avoid any teaching that two women who are raising their children together are necessarily homosexual.

..and they do.

You are using the fact that I am not a linguistic expert who is expressing his thought quickly and without review. I accept that most times I could have chosen better words and phrases but I didn't.
The fact that I used the word 'heterosexual' implied to you that the teachers use that word. It didn't to me, it merely distinguished between same sex and opposite sex marriages.

 

[sooda]

..and they do.

You are using the fact that I am not a linguistic expert who is expressing his thought quickly and without review. I accept that most times I could have chosen better words and phrases but I didn't.
The fact that I used the word 'heterosexual' implied to you that the teachers use that word. It didn't to me, it merely distinguished between same sex and opposite sex marriages.

See this above:

The same applies for learning that their are families out there consisting of children who

• Only live with one parent;
• Live with other relatives instead of their parents;
• Are orphans;
• Are of a different religion;
• Are of a different ethnicity;
• Speak a different language;
• Might possess some form of vulnerability such as blindness, deafness etc;

What is the purpose of introducing sexual orientation into this?

 

[Altfish]

Why does an 8 year old need to know that "gays exist"?

Why do you use the phrase "Gay sex" You are again scare mongering.

In lessons on relations the teachers don't talk of sex between parents, they talk about 'family units', the different types of units that may exist, role of grandparents and aunts and uncles. Sex ad the mechanics of it is only mentioned at secondary school, often in biology classes.

It is Project Fear, denying children important lessons in the way the country they live in functions.

 

[Altfish]

See this above:

The same applies for learning that their are families out there consisting of children who

• Only live with one parent;
• Live with other relatives instead of their parents;
• Are orphans;
• Are of a different religion;
• Are of a different ethnicity;
• Speak a different language;
• Might possess some form of vulnerability such as blindness, deafness etc;

What is the purpose of introducing sexual orientation into this?

I think you are obsessed with SEX.- they talk about RELATIONSHIPS not sex.
Because, if in your class there is a child with two mums, it helps you understand why

 

[sooda]

I think you are obsessed with SEX.- they talk about RELATIONSHIPS not sex.
Because, if in your class there is a child with two mums, it helps you understand why

LOLOL.. There you go.. accuse ME of being obsessed with sex.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

See this above:

The same applies for learning that their are families out there consisting of children who

• Only live with one parent;
• Live with other relatives instead of their parents;
• Are orphans;
• Are of a different religion;
• Are of a different ethnicity;
• Speak a different language;
• Might possess some form of vulnerability such as blindness, deafness etc;

What is the purpose of introducing sexual orientation into this?

How do you propose explaining to kids that some kids have two parents of the same gender without bringing sexual orientation into it? Seriously? I'm genuinely trying to come up with a way here and can't see how you could. Especially since the first question 8 year olds like to ask when discovering a new concept is "why?"

So please, purely as thought experiment, how would you explain two same gender parents to an 8 year old class without mentioning sexual orientation?

 

[Rival]

A bit young to learn that same-sex couples exist (and raise children)? Not at all. These kids will probably be experiencing this already, or they will later as they progress through their education. It's important to help them understand that this is a fact of life and is not inherently harmful.

The same applies for learning that their are families out there consisting of children who

• Only live with one parent;
• Live with other relatives instead of their parents;
• Are orphans;
• Are of a different religion;
• Are of a different ethnicity;
• Speak a different language;
• Might possess some form of vulnerability such as blindness, deafness etc;

No Outsiders teaches the kids about all of these things. Yet for all their denials of homophobia, the (predominantly) Muslim parents are only protesting about one (misrepresented) aspect of the curriculum: namely that gay people exist. The only reason that the parents seem to be putting forth is that it's against Islam, but implicitly they're admitting they don't want their children being taught anything that could compromise the religious conditioning they'll be subjected to at home, in the mosque or madrassa.

The lessons don't touch on the mechanics of any kind of sex. Even if they did, it's hardly likely to turn anybody gay; that's just the old 'homosexual indoctrination' trope being trotted out which is homophobic bunk.

It also betrays a lack of integrity. If they truly believed in their faith then this shouldn't shake it. Many things exist in this world that make people question, that make people doubt, but also that make people believe. By not exposing them or even just allowing this information to reach their kids they are only delaying the inevitable and the shock will hit so much harder.

 

[Altfish]

LOLOL.. There you go.. accuse ME of being obsessed with sex.

Well, it is only you who used the word, I talked constantly about relationships and family.