Birth of Jesus in summer, according to Qur'an

[peacecrusader888]

One problem I see with this is the assumption that the dates were ripe through natural means. What I mean is, taken in context, immediately following two miraculous events: a voice coming from the ground; a rivulet appearing out of nowhere; the idea that ripe dates could suddenly appear out of season seems to fit right in.

For that matter, if it actually were the right season for dates to be ripe, why would she need to be told that she could get some by shaking a date tree?

20111123.1200

@Quagmire

Why shake the palm-tree? Why not just provide the date fruit to eat? You know, I am wondering whether a pregnant woman at the “pangs of childbirth” would still have the strength to shake a date palm. If a rivulet had been provided, why can’t the date fruit also? Why is the voice coming from below? Angel Gabriel in the New Testament talk to Zechariah and Mary not from below.

 

[Quagmire]

20111123.1200

@Quagmire

Why shake the palm-tree? Why not just provide the date fruit to eat?

I don't think that's a relevant question: whether or not the fruit is ripe naturally or by divine means, the voice is telling her to shake the tree either way. I think the more relevant question is, like I said: if it actually were the right season for dates to be ripe, why would it take a disembodied voice to tell her that she could get some by shaking a date tree? It wouldn't: she's already sitting there in front of the tree. If there are ripe dates hanging over her head, she would be able to see them and she would know that shaking the tree would cause some to fall, ie., she wouldn't need God or an angel to tell her any of that.

You know, I am wondering whether a pregnant woman at the “pangs of childbirth” would still have the strength to shake a date palm.

If she didn't, why would the voice tell her to? That would have to be explained either way.

If a rivulet had been provided, why can’t the date fruit also?

That's what I'm saying: it could easily be suggested that the fruit actually was provided by divine means, ie., that it was caused to ripen out of season. The fact that she had to shake the tree to get it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

Considering that the instruction to shake the tree comes after the presentation of two miracles, to me this suggests that the appearance of "ripe dates" could well be intended to be interpreted as one more in the same series of miracles.

Why is the voice coming from below?

Not seeing how this is relevant either. What we're debating is whether or not the passage indicates that Mary gave birth to Jesus in the summer. How does where the voice is coming from effect that?

Angel Gabriel in the New Testament talk to Zechariah and Mary not from below.

And? I'm really not getting what point your trying to make with this.

 

[Me Myself]

December is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE the date Jesus was born

Jesus´s Birthday celebration IS KNOWN NOT TO BE the same day as his birth.

Is it hard to get?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

The best evidence the Bible has in determining the date of the birth of Jesus is sometime between March and April. December 25 was chosen to replace a pagan holiday, Yule (the winter solstice), when the days began to be longer, and the sun was said to 'resurrect'. Saturnalia, as well as the birthday of Mithras, were also held on this day. However, not only the evidence in the Bible says that Jesus was born in spring, but there is a tradition in both Judaism (I think, I could be wrong), and the ancient church (still held by Catholics and Orthodox), that a holy person generally died on the day they were born, which would be sufficient for Bible Christians to celebrate the birth of Jesus at least somewhere close to his date of death.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

20111123.1200

@Quagmire

Why shake the palm-tree? Why not just provide the date fruit to eat? You know, I am wondering whether a pregnant woman at the “pangs of childbirth” would still have the strength to shake a date palm. If a rivulet had been provided, why can’t the date fruit also? Why is the voice coming from below? Angel Gabriel in the New Testament talk to Zechariah and Mary not from below.

Acording to this Ayah:

Qura'an Sura Al-Imran
3:37 And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth; and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah went into the sanctuary where she was, he found that she had food. He said: O Mary! Whence cometh unto thee this (food) ? She answered: It is from Allah. Allah giveth without stint to whom He will.

According "Ibn-Katheer" interpretion to this Ayah: he syas that Zachariah (PBUH) found -in her chamber- the fruit of summer in winter and the fruit of winter in summer.

so he was wondering "O Mary! Whence cometh unto thee this (food) ?"

I hope this Ayah will help!

 

[Pegg]

20111120.0815

This is what is in the Qur’an by Marmaduke Pickthall, 19:22-26, on the birth of Jesus:
22 And she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place.
23 And the pangs of childbirth drove her unto the trunk of the palm-tree. She said: On, would that I had died ere this and had become a thing of naught, forgotten!
24 Then (one) cried unto her from below her, saying: Grieve not! Thy Lord hath placed a rivulet beneath thee,
25 And shake the trunk of the palm-tree toward thee, thou wilt cause ripe dates to fall upon thee.
26 So eat and drink and be consoled. And if thou meetest any mortal, say: Lo! I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficent, and may not speak this day to any mortal.

So Mary gave birth to Jesus during summer when the dates are ripe. Could anyone prove that Jesus was born in summer? Which date? The Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25, but this date does not agree with the account in the Holy Bible.

i've never read anything about mary and a palm tree in the gospel accounts, but the bible does not state an exact date for jesus birth. It does however say that the shephards were sleeping outdoors with their flocks so this indicates that it was in the warmer months and not december which is a cold season in jerusalem.

 

[not nom]

dec 25 has to do with the winter solstice and nothing to do with the birth of jesus.

actually, the winter solstice is on the 21st, my birthday close enough

 

[not nom]

December is NOT SUPPOSED TO BE the date Jesus was born

Jesus´s Birthday celebration IS KNOWN NOT TO BE the same day as his birth.

Is it hard to get?

oh, actually it was assumed to be just that for quite a long time.

Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If the Qur’an comes from the true God, who the Muslims believe is Allah, then, prove that Jesus was really born in summer.

Stupid requests aside, the fact remains that there is no way to establish a proposed date of birth. I believe the Mormons place it in April. Some atronomers with arguably too much time on their hands argue for June. Meanwhile, a BAR article notes:

Jesus’ ministry, miracles, Passion and Resurrection were often of most interest to first- and early-second-century C.E. Christian writers. But over time, Jesus’ origins would become of increasing concern. We can begin to see this shift already in the New Testament. The earliest writings—Paul and Mark—make no mention of Jesus’ birth. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke provide well-known but quite different accounts of the event—although neither specifies a date. In the second century C.E., further details of Jesus’ birth and childhood are related in apocryphal writings such as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas and the Proto-Gospel of James.b These texts provide everything from the names of Jesus’ grandparents to the details of his education—but not the date of his birth.

Finally, in about 200 C.E., a Christian teacher in Egypt makes reference to the date Jesus was born. According to Clement of Alexandria, several different days had been proposed by various Christian groups. Surprising as it may seem, Clement doesn’t mention December 25 at all. Clement writes: “There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of [the Egyptian month] Pachon [May 20 in our calendar]...And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”

Those who claim knowledge by way of revelation are welcome to it. Others should be content with realizing that some questions are simply unanswerable.

 

[Desert Snake]

Does anyone know if dates are on the trees in winter?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Does anyone know if dates are on the trees in winter?

Does anyone care?

 

[Desert Snake]

Does anyone care?

Yes, obviously, as this thread proves.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, obviously, as this thread proves.

His thread proves nothing but sloppy argumentation.

 

[Nabeel Akhalwaya Motala]

We can't say for a fact that he was born in summer because for Allah (SWT) to provide ripe dates for Mary (PBUH) or whomever else He pleases during winter is easy! He need only say "BE" and it is!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

We can't say for a fact that he was born in summer because for Allah (SWT) to provide ripe dates for Mary (PBUH) or whomever else He pleases during winter is easy! He need only say "BE" and it is!

Yes, the "God did it" argument is bullet-proof, which makes it less than useful.

 

[YmirGF]

We can't say for a fact that he was born in summer because for Allah (SWT) to provide ripe dates for Mary (PBUH) or whomever else He pleases during winter is easy! He need only say "BE" and it is!

The unfortunate fact remains that we have zero proof and precious little evidence that the historical Jesus ever existed, let alone relying on looney arguments about date trees to prove the inadequacy of our understanding. One may as well click their heels three times, whilst screaming, "Yes, we can!"

 

[Desert Snake]

Even if the dates could have been there in winter, there is still the NT manger problem.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Even if the dates could have been there in winter, there is still the NT manger problem.

 

[Desert Snake]

Anyways, I think someone here said Jesus was born in the summer, not sure how they figured that, though. If the only reasoning behind this theory is the date tree and the shepherds then I'm not so sure this holds up.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Stupid requests aside, the fact remains that there is no way to establish a proposed date of birth. I believe the Mormons place it in April. Some atronomers with arguably too much time on their hands argue for June. Meanwhile, a BAR article notes:Those who claim knowledge by way of revelation are welcome to it. Others should be content with realizing that some questions are simply unanswerable.

Read through any of the ante-Nicean church fathers who debated this question, and they all agree that Jesus was probably born sometime in spring. All the evidence, as little as that may be, points in this direction. However, you are right in your last statement. There's no real way to answer this question, and it all comes down to conjecture.