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Bob the atheist?

Depends on how you use the language.

You might not like it, but agnosticism has traditionally been distinct from theism and atheism.

The language even exists to have more than 3 positions

The language exists regardless of whether or not you give it your seal of approval.

Lol. No.

Agnosticism is not the third position between atheist and theist, that's simply not what the word means.

Agnosticism is a knowledge claim, while theism/atheism is a belief claim. There can be atheists that hold the position that gods couldn't be known even if they did exist, but still don't believe they do, likewise for theists.

You, like many, have made a category error here.
 
Thiesm describes some people who have a particular belief, and atheism describes some people who deny that belief. It's not necessary for anyone to either hold that belief or deny it.
Only that's not what the word means. One who denies, actively, a specific theistic claim is an 'antitheist'

Anti - Greek prefix for opposite or against

A - Greek prefix for not or without.

A- not/without
Theist- one who believes in a god or gods.

Atheist - one who is without a belief in a god or gods.
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
That's your choice, of course. Your failure to reply will mean that I'm still batting 1000 when it comes to asking people what they mean by "god" and getting either a nonsensical response or no response at all. ;)

It's heartbreaking that you're proud of rejecting a position you admit ignorance on. I guess if we find someone who doesn't know what bananas are, and so reject their existence, we just have to accept it as true. #atheistlogic
 
Lol. No.

Agnosticism is not the third position between atheist and theist, that's simply not what the word means.

Agnosticism is a knowledge claim, while theism/atheism is a belief claim. There can be atheists that hold the position that gods couldn't be known even if they did exist, but still don't believe they do, likewise for theists.

You, like many, have made a category error here.

The word has a range of meanings.

It's not a category error when the word can be used for the same purpose as theist, atheist, pantheist, etc. as a statement of attitude towards the existence of god.

An agnostic could be theist, atheist or neither. It was an example for how under generally accepted common usages, it is possible to be neither theist nor atheist, as many agnostics will tell you.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
An agnostic could be theist, atheist or neither. It was an example for how under generally accepted common usages, it is possible to be neither theist nor atheist, as many agnostics will tell you.
Well, you are either a theist or not theist (atheist). There's no third option.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Only that's not what the word means. One who denies, actively, a specific theistic claim is an 'antitheist'

Anti - Greek prefix for opposite or against

A - Greek prefix for not or without.

A- not/without
Theist- one who believes in a god or gods.

Atheist - one who is without a belief in a god or gods.
It's what it means where I live.
 
nly that's not what the word means. One who denies, actively, a specific theistic claim is an 'antitheist'

Anti - Greek prefix for opposite or against

A - Greek prefix for not or without.

A- not/without
Theist- one who believes in a god or gods.

Atheist - one who is without a belief in a god or gods.


So if meaning comes from letters rather than convention, when theist meant what we now call dest, was an atheist 'one who is without belief in deism'?


Well, you are either a theist or not theist (atheist). There's no third option.

In your opinion, based on a subjective preference of how to define terms.

It's not objectively true, or 'impartial' to define terms this way, just your personal preference.

Do you at least accept this?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
In your opinion, based on a subjective preference of how to define terms.

It's not objectively true, or 'impartial' to define terms this way, just your personal preference.

Do you at least accept this?
I don't know what you mean. I can assure you that when you look up on the internet and find that a theist is defined as a person who believes in the existence of one or more gods and the prefix a- literally means "not, without" https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/prefixes.htm none of them wrote that based on my personal preference.
 
So if meaning comes from letters rather than convention, when theist meant what we now call dest, was an atheist 'one who is without belief in deism?

Nope, deism is a subsect of theism that adds the caveat of being an absentee landlord style of god.

Again, words mean things.

The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)"
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Read as: where you live people tend to use words loosely rather than exactly. Misusing a word doesn't change its definition.
Just going by the word it should just be a(not)-theism. The word atheism depends a word for "god believer" existing. It's one of the few words special like that.
 
I don't know what you mean. I can assure you that when you look up on the internet and find that a theist is defined as a person who believes in the existence of one or more gods and the prefix a- literally means "not, without" https://www.englishclub.com/vocabulary/prefixes.htm none of them wrote that based on my personal preference.

Unfortunately for this line of argument, words do not get their meanings from the letters within them. This is a very basic principle. Language only gains meaning from usage and convention.

The a- in atheism is different from the a- in ashore, and the only reason we know this is convention. However you are also arguing that we dispense with convention by disqualifying a common usage of the word atheism because it doesn't match a second convention a = without and theism = belief in gods. So your argument rests on favouring one convention over another, yet you deny you are being subjective??

Meaning is only derived from usage, nothing else.

"'Language does not exist; it is an abstractum. That we cannot enter twice the same river,applies also to language." "Language is no object of use,and no tool,it is no object at all, it is nothing but its use. Language is use of language" " Language came into being as a big city, room on room, window on window,flat on flat, house on house,street on street, quarter on quarter. . ." It is here that his insistence on the context comes in. With Frege and Wittgenstein he maintains that the basic unit of meaning is the sentence and that the word gains its meaning from it" On Fritz Mauthner's Critique of Language - Gershon Weiler

Nope, deism is a subsect of theism that adds the caveat of being an absentee landlord style of god.

Again, words mean things.

Yes, words mean things. You find it hard to accept that they mean many things though, and different things to different people, particularly across long periods of time.

Theism for example according to the OED:

c. Belief in the existence of God, with denial of revelation: = deism n. (and also: A morbid condition characterized by headache, sleeplessness, and palpitation of the heart, caused by excessive tea-drinking.)

So atheism means without theism, without deism and without a morbid condition characterized by headache, sleeplessness, and palpitation of the heart, caused by excessive tea-drinking.

The term atheism originated from the Greek ἄθεος (atheos), meaning "without god(s)"

So using your line of argumentation: atheos = without gods and -ism = a belief or principle, so the belief or principle of being without gods, not the state of lacking theism.

It isn't a(theism) it is athe(ism).

Even if you use the undeniably incorrect argument the meaning is fixed by letters, it still doesn't mean what you want it to.

Seeing as you brought them up, the ancient Greeks didn't use the term to denote a 'lack of belief', it was used to describe a position taken in opposition to the favoured gods. You were without gods because you had backed the wrong horse.

You accuse anyone who disagrees with your definition as doing so out of 'arrogance', yet you state a subjective and poorly reasoned preference as relating to an objective truth.Your definition is 'right' and theirs is 'wrong' as the word 'doesn't mean that', even though it clearly does 'mean that' for many people.

All arguments about meaning simply reflect different conventions and usages, is this really so difficult to understand?

Read as: where you live people tend to use words loosely rather than exactly. Misusing a word doesn't change its definition.

Actually it very obviously does. See words such as cool, gay, bad, enormity, anxious or decimate for example. Also, see your definition of atheism.

All of these words have taken on new meanings through repeated 'misuse'. Everyone has words they hate being 'misused' like when people say 'I've got literally millions of things to do', but language is just constantly evolving use of language so you can't really complain, especially when you are advocating that your 'misuse' has rendered a more common usage to be no longer acceptable.

It's quite comical how some people have so little self-awareness that they think they are being 'precise', 'objective' and using a word 'correctly' by continuing a concerted attempt to redefine a word which historically had a different meaning.

I understand why some people feel that this redefinition is superior, I find it much harder to understand why they find it so difficult to accept that it is merely a subjective preference rather than an objective fact though.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
ouch.
Again, what victory did I claim?

The OP specifically specified Bob have no concept of both gods and religion.
Please be so kind as to explain how Bob can have a belief in something he has no concept of.

Now if you consider me a liar over the OP then you must also be a liar over your claim of my claiming victory.

You went with 'specifically specified' for 'believes.' The victory is inferred from "Actually we do" in response to "We do not, unless conception and belief are equal."

Not making the connection here is interesting. Because while it is accurate to say Bob cannot believe in something he has no concept of, the point is Bob is absent of belief, unlike other atheists who lack belief but have conception. Can make the connection. Not absent, just not enough belief.

But yes, had I said you specifically specified a victory, I could see how'd you see it as the same sort of lie.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Theist/atheist is a binary position.

Everyone on this earth either eats meat or doesn't eat meat, there is no third position.

Everyone on this earth either has two legs or does not have two legs.

Everyone on this earth either owns an iPhone or does not own an iPhone

Everyone on this earth either believes god/s exist or doesn't believe God/s exist.

The way the language is structured doesn't allow for any third position.

God/s is/are different than these things because they are finite. Very conceptual while overlapping with experience.

Like saying: Everyone on this earth either believes science exists or doesn't believe science exists.
Or: Everyone on this earth either believes morality exists or doesn't believe morality exists.

And with gods, I feel like it's fairly well understood (though perhaps not widely understood) that arguably everyone is atheist if the definition is only lacking belief. Not absent.
It's plausible that someone on this earth (or perhaps many) are believers in every god concept (ever).
I would say far more likely that overwhelming majority is absent belief via ignorance (just like unawareness of all conceivable branches of science would mean absence) or lacking various degrees of belief.
And challenging to understand how anyone might lay claim to 100% belief, though not implausible. Again, similar to a branch of science, as possibility of new discoveries and/or updated understanding would leave room for 100% to be inaccurate right about now.

Confidence, or faith, in the fundamental aspect, not so challenging to be at 100%.

And yet, possible a strong theist could show up in a moment as agnostic or lacking belief; while atheist shows up for a short moment (shhhh don't tell anyone) as theist, or gnostic. All that could happen in the same person, so not necessarily binary.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately for this line of argument, words do not get their meanings from the letters within them. This is a very basic principle. Language only gains meaning from usage and convention.
You mean that most atheists such as American Atheists should be forced to define themselves as

"To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good." Psalm 14:1

because they live in a country where most are theists and this is how theists define them?
 
You mean that most atheists such as American Atheists should be forced to define themselves as

"To the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good." Psalm 14:1

because they live in a country where most are theists and this is how theists define them?

You're just making things up now.

People should be free to define themselves. Language is use of language.

You assert that they must be atheists or theists, 'there is no 3rd position' [let alone 4th or 5th].

I don't.
 

happyo

Member
An atheist rejects the idea of God or a supreme being, you can't reject something that you have never learned and as far as most religious teachings go, if he died without rejecting God, but lived a good life, then he will walk thru those pearly gates. It is an idea invented by men that we have to be one religion or another, so they can have that power over you. I am religiously lost. Not a Christian, not a Muslim, or Jew, but God exists, and those books are a divine gift.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
You're just making things up now.

People should be free to define themselves.
And how is American Atheists free to define themselves if you insist that they should use the theist definition because since most in the US are theists the theist definition is the "conventional usage"?
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
An atheist rejects the idea of God or a supreme being, you can't reject something that you have never learned
Its that theism is the belief, acceptance of the idea that god exists. You can't accept something that you never thought of. So if a person does not believe in a god they are atheist, whether they heard of zero god concepts or a thousands should be irrelevant.
 
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