Book of Mormon

[idea]

...That's because it is. The existence or nonexistence of a Heavenly Mother does not affect any of the saving doctrines: faith, repentance, baptism, confirmation, sacrament. Nor does it have bearing on the ordinances of the priesthood, nor any of the commandments. It's the Mormon equivalent of angels dancing on the head of a pin.

This is the kind of thing I was offended at. If there is no Heavenly Mother, where does that leave all the women in the church? What kind of a future should they seek for? Heavenly Mother is a sacred topic, not one to be frivioulously compared to dancing angels. To question Her existence is to question the existence of Heavenly Parents, of Heavenly Families, of the entire purpose for everything that we are to work towards.

Honor thy Father and thy Mother. It is one of the commandments.

 

[Watchmen]

Sorry maybe I am being picky here, but that is not exactly true. It is only available to worthy LDS who have been endowed in the temple.

No, Dream Angel.

Are you aware of baptism for the dead? Just like we perform baptism for the dead so all can receive this ordinance, we perform sealings for the dead so all may have this blessing as well.

So - it is available to all.

 

[idea]

Sorry maybe I am being picky here, but that is not exactly true. It is only available to worthy LDS who have been endowed in the temple.

Everyone can become a worthy LDS member. It takes a little over a year after you join the church. :yes: we would all love for you to join us.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

No, Dream Angel.

Are you aware of baptism for the dead? Just like we perform baptism for the dead so all can receive this ordinance, we perform sealings for the dead so all may have this blessing as well.

So - it is available to all.

Sorry I thought you were talking about here and now.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Everyone can become a worthy LDS member. It takes a little over a year after you join the church. :yes: we would all love for you to join us.

sorry to disappoint you but I wont be....

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Sorry Katz - I know what you mean now! duh! I am ill so not on top form at mo! Quesiton though - isnt there a limit to how far up the kingdoms you can go if you havent lived your earth life as an LDS, or that is what I was told once anyway.

 

[doppelganger]

But it's easlily distinguished by the fact that the rest of the world seems to be marrying "til death do you part" and we're marrying for "time and all eternity."

In context of my complaint, that's a distinction without a difference.

Also the sealing "ritual" is made available to all - so all will choose whether they want it or not - no one is being denied the opportunity.

What are the requirements?

Edit: Also, we don't consider non-sealing marriages "worthless." If we did, the Church would not have entered the Prop 8 debate (I really don't want to go there).

But you do consider my relationship with my children as worth less because I don't use the Mormon magic words and rituals, right? Or at least you imagine a "God" that thinks less of my marriage and my relationship to my children on that basis.

You don't see how that could be considered really offensive by reasonable people?

And I'm glad you brought it up, because this disrespectful attitude toward other people's values and beliefs is likely at the core of why the LDS church was willing to do what it did perhaps. It makes more sense to me now that I know more about this teaching.

 

[idea]

Sorry Katz - I know what you mean now! duh! I am ill so not on top form at mo! Quesiton though - isnt there a limit to how far up the kingdoms you can go if you havent lived your earth life as an LDS, or that is what I was told once anyway.

You are accountable for what you know.

1 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.
72 Behold, these are they who died without law;
73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.
76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.
77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section76:71 - 77)

so, if the gospel is preached to you, if the Holy Spirit bears witness to you, and you do not receive a testimony in this life (in the flesh) but afterwards received it (after you die) this is the terrestrial world - the one in the middle. 76 explains all the levels and how to get to each one.

So many say "it's OK, just wait until your dead, everything will be ok".... well, that is true for infants who have died, for people in other parts of the world who have never had a chance... if you have heard about it though - you have had a chance, you will be held accountable for what you do with the information you are given.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

You are accountable for what you know.

So many say "it's OK, just wait until your dead, everything will be ok".... well, that is true for infants who have died, for people in other parts of the world who have never had a chance... if you have heard about it though - you have had a chance, you will be held accountable for what you do with the information you are given.

Oh great...the scare tactic.....

 

[Watchmen]

In context of my complaint, that's a distinction without a difference.

Actually, it's not.

What are the requirements?

To receive and live the ordinances of the gospel.

But you do consider my relationship with my children as worth less because I don't use the Mormon magic words and rituals, right? Or at least you imagine a "God" that thinks less of my marriage and my relationship to my children on that basis.

You don't see how that could be considered really offensive by reasonable people?

And I'm glad you brought it up, because this disrespectful attitude toward other people's values and beliefs is likely at the core of why the LDS church was willing to do what it did perhaps. It makes more sense to me now that I know more about this teaching.

Quite the opposite in fact. I consider your relationship to your wife and children to be of grand worth and importance and hope that you can receive the full blessings and promises that such a relationship may bring.

As for Prop 8, I hope you don't forget that some LDS (like me) voted NO. So how does one disrespectful toward other's values and beliefs vote NO?

 

[Watchmen]

Sorry Katz - I know what you mean now! duh! I am ill so not on top form at mo! Quesiton though - isnt there a limit to how far up the kingdoms you can go if you havent lived your earth life as an LDS, or that is what I was told once anyway.

Dream Angel, I don't know who is telling you this stuff, but wrong again.

There is no requirement that you live your earth life as an LDS to reach the highest degree of God's glory. If there was, what's the point of doing sealings for the dead?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Dream Angel, I don't know who is telling you this stuff, but wrong again.

There is no requirement that you live your earth life as an LDS to reach the highest degree of God's glory. If there was, what's the point of doing sealings for the dead?

Thats what I thought....it was an LDS that told me that!

 

[Watchmen]

So many say "it's OK, just wait until your dead, everything will be ok".... well, that is true for infants who have died, for people in other parts of the world who have never had a chance... if you have heard about it though - you have had a chance, you will be held accountable for what you do with the information you are given.

It's between the person and God. It's not enough to say "you heard it so you had your chance." We cannot say - only God can.

 

[idea]

What are the requirements?

But you do consider my relationship with my children as worth less because I don't use the Mormon magic words and rituals, right? Or at least you imagine a "God" that thinks less of my marriage and my relationship to my children on that basis.

You don't see how that could be considered really offensive by reasonable people?

And I'm glad you brought it up, because this disrespectful attitude toward other people's values and beliefs is likely at the core of why the LDS church was willing to do what it did perhaps. It makes more sense to me now that I know more about this teaching.

No one is trying to say anyone's family is worthless. quite the contrary, we are saying that family is everything, family is the reason for living, family is the bliss of heaven. We honor all who honor their families.

Do you think the relashonship between people who are dating worth less than between those who have made vows to one another?

There are stages in things. Is a child worth less than an adult? No - they have equal value. One is just at a different stage in things than the other. Not saying that we are higher up either, as far as learning to be selfless, humble, loving etc... I honestly see some of those outside the church on higher stages than those within.

 

[Watchmen]

Thats what I thought....it was an LDS that told me that!

Interesting.

Well, as you know from being at this place, there's a lot of disagreement about certain things.

If that LDS person tells you that again, ask them why we do sealings for the dead. There would be no point.

 

[idea]

It's between the person and God. It's not enough to say "you heard it so you had your chance." We cannot say - only God can.

I agree, only God knows. point being we should not say anything that would in any way encourage procrastination of anything.... deathbed repentance, or after death bed repentance...

 

[doppelganger]

Actually, it's not.

Actually it is.

To receive and live the ordinances of the gospel.

Which means what . .. precisely?

Quite the opposite in fact. I consider your relationship to your wife and children to be of grand worth and importance and hope that you can receive the full blessings and promises that such a relationship may bring.

. . . with the proviso that if I don't believe what you believe, then you think that relationship is worth less than yours. Pretty simple really, and it goes to the gravamen of my complaint. Now give me a justification for the difference. And if your answer is "Smith said God said so" then you'll need to answer my critique of that sort of reasoning from above.

As for Prop 8, I hope you don't forget that some LDS (like me) voted NO. So how does one disrespectful toward other's values and beliefs vote NO?

You let the better angel of your nature win out over the divisiveness of your doctrine. And I commend you for doing so.

 

[idea]

Which means what . .. precisely?

Ordinances – baptism (after you read scripts, pray about it, receive witness, repent, vow to follow Christ) receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, keep Sabath day Holy, be honest, chaste, follow word of wisom (no drugs, alchohol, coffee, tea, ) the stuff for the temple is pretty much the same as the stuff you do when you are baptised, dedicate your life to God.
You pray about things, when the Holy spirit directs you, you follow the direction. line upon line, no one does all of it, we do what we are able / what we understand. Like fasting, the first time, I did not know it was no water, just no food. So at first, that is how I fasted. When I learned more, I did more.

Everyone knows (if they are honest with themself and don't rationalize it away) what is good and what is not. Follow what you know to be good.

 

[idea]

"Smith said God said so"

You can shorten that to simply "God said so". Pray to find out for yourself directly from the Holy Spirit.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
(Book of Mormon | Moroni10:4 - 5)


Smith, nor anyone else is asking anyone to take their word for it. The Holy Spirit is real...

HOLY GHOST. See also Baptism, Baptize; Comforter; Dove, Sign of the; Gift of the Holy Ghost; God, Godhead; Holy Spirit of Promise; Inspiration, Inspire; Revelation; Unpardonable Sin
The third member of the Godhead (1 Jn. 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a personage of Spirit, not having a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130:22). The Holy Ghost is often referred to as the Spirit, or the Spirit of God.

The Holy Ghost performs several vital roles in the plan of salvation.
(1) He bears witness of the Father and the Son (1 Cor. 12:3; 3 Ne. 28:11; Ether 12:41).
(2) He reveals the truth of all things (John 14:26; 16:13; Moro. 10:5; D&C 39:6).
(3) He sanctifies those who have repented and become baptized (John 3:5; 3 Ne. 27:20; Moses 6:64–68).
(4) He is the Holy Spirit of Promise (D&C 76:50–53; 132:7, 18–19, 26).

The power of the Holy Ghost can come upon a person before baptism and witness that the gospel is true. But the right to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whenever one is worthy, is a gift that can be received only by the laying on of hands by a Melchizedek Priesthood holder after authorized baptism into the true Church of Jesus Christ.
Jesus taught that all sins could be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matt. 12:31–32; Mark 3:28–29; Luke 12:10; Heb. 6:4–8; D&C 76:34–35).

The Spirit causes men to walk in God's statutes, Ezek. 36:27. The Apostles were commissioned to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, Matt. 28:19. The Holy Ghost shall teach you all things, John 14:26. Holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost, 2 Pet. 1:21. Nephi was led by the Spirit, 1 Ne. 4:6. The mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them by the power of the Holy Ghost, 1 Ne. 10:17–19. The Holy Ghost shows all things that you should do, 2 Ne. 32:5. By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10:5. The Holy Ghost will tell you in your mind and in your heart, D&C 8:2. The Spirit leadeth to do good, D&C 11:12. The Holy Ghost knoweth all things, D&C 35:19. The Holy Ghost teaches the peaceable things of the kingdom, D&C 36:2 (D&C 39:6). If ye receive not the Spirit, ye shall not teach, D&C 42:14. The Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and the Son, D&C 42:17 (1 Cor. 12:3; 3 Ne. 11:32, 35–36). To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, D&C 46:13. Whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, D&C 68:4. The Holy Ghost shall be shed forth in bearing record unto all things ye shall say, D&C 100:8. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, D&C 121:45–46.
(Guide to the Scriptures | HHoly Ghost.:Entry)

 

[doppelganger]

You can shorten that to simply "God said so".

Where when and to whom? And were you there to hear it yourself?