Book of Mormon

[DeepShadow]

Luckily I know that it's just foolish humans weaving wacky tales.

Thank you for demonstrating that self-righteousness doesn't require a religion.

 

[Father Heathen]

Thank you for demonstrating that self-righteousness doesn't require a religion.

If by "self-righteous" you mean honest and realistic, then yes.

 

[DeepShadow]

And now suddenly, even the LDS don't know what the LDS believe. "Hello! Does anyone know what Mormonism teaches?!" :help:

I cited the very manuals we teach from. You keep saying I'm playing games, but I really don't see how you can keep saying it. I'll ask again: how can anything be central to our teachings if we don't teach it? That's an honest question, and you have yet to answer it.

Here, I made a picture to illustrate it:

Elder B. Renato Maldonado
Area Authority Seventy, South America North Area, titled "Messages from the Doctrine & Covenants: The Three Degrees of Glory":

We do not know much about who will inherit two of the three degrees within the celestial kingdom. However, much has been said about the highest level in the celestial kingdom, or exaltation, because that is where the Father wants all of His children to live (see Moses 1:39). The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that temple marriage is the key to obtaining exaltation...
​

I think Elder Maldonado knows what he is talking about. Is he wrong? He is the Area Authority Seventy of your Church and this is published in the Church's official magazine, Ensign, April, 2005.

Gee, that would be in circle D, right? That's not as close to the center as the stuff you're ignoring. Why is that? Why are you probing around the perimeter instead of hitting the heart of things? I mean, I posted a link to the manual, that's at least circle C. And you obviously have access to the Standard Works and Official Proclamations.

And, of course, "exaltation," is full godhood, as noted by LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie: "That exaltation which the saints of all ages have so devoutly sought is godhood itself" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321).

Geez, this is even farther out! You're in the outfield now, as far as doctrinal correctness is concerned. Why don't you get closer to home base, in the heart of things?

A note to all the LDS around here, this image may help when discussing doctrine with non-LDS...and perhaps even with each other. Feel free to use it!

 

[Katzpur]

You know full well that that is not what I'm referring to. It's a nasty belief that it's okay to threaten people's relationships with their families to get them to obey Mormon teachings.

That seems like a kind of a silly way to put it, Dopp. If a person sincerely accepts the tenets of Mormonism, he or she is going to believe that temple marriage is necessary to ensure the eternal nature of the family unit. When it comes to religious beliefs, fear really isn't the motivating factor you make it out to be. How many former Christians on this forum alone left Christianity because they were turned off by the threat of having to spend an eternity in Hell because of some infraction of the rules? These people left Christianity because of what they perceived to be (possibly with good reason) to be threats. The threats did not motivate them to obey Christian teachings. It just doesn't work that way. If I didn't believe that I needed to be sealed to my husband in order to be his wife forever, I wouldn't have been sealed to my husband, nor would I be agonizing over a "threat" I thought was without substance.

 

[Katzpur]

Wow! I just got caught up on my reading. This thread is getting downright nasty. I wonder why that always had to happen.

 

[Watchmen]

If I was nasty to anyone then I apologize. For some reason I feel free to criticize my religion, but when outsiders do it I get offended.

 

[idea]

[/font][/color][/font][/color]So you audibly heard it or you "heard" it in your thoughts?
[/font][/color]
[/font][/color]

Both. An audible voice speaking directly to my mind, it was not just thoughts, it was an actual voice. I thought there was a person in the room with me, I guess there was a being in the room with me... it sounded like talking to someone who is standing there next to you. Rather invasive… no privacy at all, I mean I was in the shower, I’m not used to people just walking into the bathroom when you know, and not just that, invasive of my thoughts. I used to think thoughts were a private affair. I don’t think that anymore. I always thought that it would be a comforting thing, but at the time it was just invasive… I tend to put walls up between myself and others, to have every aspect of that wall torn down…. It was a feeling of being naked and exposed on more than one level. I mean it should not be a bad thing, I’m just not used to it. I was glad for it, those words did get me through quite a bit.

 

[rabanes]

Gee, that would be in circle D, right? That's not as close to the center as the stuff you're ignoring. Why is that? Why are you probing around the perimeter instead of hitting the heart of things? I mean, I posted a link to the manual, that's at least circle C. And you obviously have access to the Standard Works and Official Proclamations.

I think we are have a massive communication breakdown, and it started several posts back. because I was actually arguing for the texts in "A." So, clearly, something got screwed up. Hmmm. Maybe we just better start all over. Good little circles.

RA

 

[Katzpur]

If I was nasty to anyone then I apologize. For some reason I feel free to criticize my religion, but when outsiders do it I get offended.

Actually, it wasn't you. I've just read some posts I've felt were out of line. I've stopped reporting posts, though, so I might as well just get over it.

 

[DallasApple]

I really hope ya'll work it out...

Love

Dallas

 

[madhatter85]

Scare tactics and threats is all they have to keep their grip on the power they have over the faithful.

It's funny how people use this to blanket all religions when in fact it is far from that here in the church.

2nd Timothy 1:

7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

sorry, But no, i am not "afraid" of God.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Wow! I just got caught up on my reading. This thread is getting downright nasty. I wonder why that always had to happen.

I hope you don't see any of my posts as nasty - I dont mean them to be! I really quite neutral now!

 

[Truth_Faith13]

That all depends. Our Father in Heaven knows our hearts, and also the factors that would interfere with a person accepting the gospel in this life. A person could have been exposed to the gospel and rejected it. We have no way of knowing, though, to what degree he was touched by the Holy Ghost, or if he was at all. God expects all of God's children to sincerely seek for the truth here and now, and I'm sure there will be consequences of some sort for those who reject it after the Holy Ghost has testified to them that it's true. There are millions, though, who never receive the witness of the Holy Ghost in this life. There could be cultural, political or personal barriers that interfere and it's not for us to judge. The only thing we know for sure is that God wants His whole family -- all of His sons and daughters -- back with Him someday and will do everything possible (short of coersion or force) to see that this happens. He will make sure than, in the Spirit World, what was an uneven playing field in this life will be leveled out. No one will have an unfair advantage, but that doesn't give those who have had a fair opportunity in this life an excuse to say, "Well, I'll just wait until after I die to come around."

I see what you are saying Katz - You know I have done a lot of research so know quite a bit but I just see some contradictions in it now. It doesn't help though when you have two members telling you different things. Everything I have stated here, I heard from an LDS member.

 

[Katzpur]

I see what you are saying Katz - You know I have done a lot of research so know quite a bit but I just see some contradictions in it now. It doesn't help though when you have two members telling you different things. Everything I have stated here, I heard from an LDS member.

Yeah, but was the LDS member an old geezer like me? Of course it's difficult when you hear different things from different people. But that's going to be true with any religion. Ask two Catholics about one of their doctrines and you'll get two different interpretations. Personally, I wouldn't give the interpretations of anyone other than the General Authorities a whole lot of consideration. I'd rely on what the scriptures have to say, and recognize that the scriptures don't cover every conceivable situation. People speculate and interpret the scriptures differently, but that's why we call the scriptures the Standard Works. They are the "standard," the measuring stick for everything. So you study the scriptures, you listen to what people say, you weigh what you're told and you don't jump to any conclusions without your Father in Heaven's help.

 

[doppelganger]

It just doesn't work that way. If I didn't believe that I needed to be sealed to my husband in order to be his wife forever, I wouldn't have been sealed to my husband, nor would I be agonizing over a "threat" I thought was without substance.

I find it offensive anytime someone tells other people that what is of importance to them is less because they don't believe in X or don't follow ritual Y. I'm a live and let live sort of person when it comes to belief and largely have regarded LDS as innocuous because they had their beliefs and but for the occassional doorstep missionary, largely left other people alone. I think my attention to Mormons has been heightened by the recent refusal of the Church to respect and honor that other people have differing values and beliefs. Perhaps that's part of why I'm bothered by all of this.

If your church harasses people predicated on its superstitions, then I'll call your church and its followers to account for their superstitions. If your church leaves people alone, then what they believe is none of my business. Does that make sense? From my perspective, if you have a problem with that, take it up with your church leadership and see how responsive they are to respecting others. It's karma in action.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Yeah, but was the LDS member an old geezer like me? Of course it's difficult when you hear different things from different people. But that's going to be true with any religion. Ask two Catholics about one of their doctrines and you'll get two different interpretations. Personally, I wouldn't give the interpretations of anyone other than the General Authorities a whole lot of consideration. I'd rely on what the scriptures have to say, and recognize that the scriptures don't cover every conceivable situation. People speculate and interpret the scriptures differently, but that's why we call the scriptures the Standard Works. They are the "standard," the measuring stick for everything. So you study the scriptures, you listen to what people say, you weigh what you're told and you don't jump to any conclusions without your Father in Heaven's help.

One of them was quite old - not as old as you though! lol! :slap: (thats you hitting me by the way!) .

I have found though that with the LDS, there is a more definite belief...where as with other Christian denominations its left open for speculation. That just from what I have seen though in my short time.

 

[DeepShadow]

I think we are have a massive communication breakdown, and it started several posts back. because I was actually arguing for the texts in "A." So, clearly, something got screwed up. Hmmm. Maybe we just better start all over. Good little circles.

Well, you've mentioned deification, Heavenly Mother, and sexual intercourse in the afterlife. Where do those fall in those circles? Your sources are peripheral texts, therefore you either need to find more central texts--like the link I offered to the teacher manuals--or you need to conclude that these are peripheral doctrines, not central.

Do we talk about Heavenly Mother? Sometimes, but it's hardly central, as you claim it is.

 

[DeepShadow]

I see what you are saying Katz - You know I have done a lot of research so know quite a bit but I just see some contradictions in it now. It doesn't help though when you have two members telling you different things. Everything I have stated here, I heard from an LDS member.

Did you see my bullseye pic a page ago? This might be helpful in discerning what LDS believe AS A CHURCH. Some people blur the lines between their own interpretation and church doctrine, because their interpretation makes sense to them, and they can't see it any other way.

Stick close to the center of the bullseye, and encourage others to stick there, too.

 

[idea]

Maybe we just better start all over.

from the top

1)There are many gods in the universe (Polytheism).

Polytheism is the worship of many gods, not the existence of many Gods. A more appropriate word would be Monolatrism (the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monolatrism

The god of this planet (the one worshiped by Mormons) is an exalted man of flesh and bones who progressed to godhood just like all the other gods in the universe (although we have nothing to do with those particular gods).

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section130:22)

As far as exalted man:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know...that he was once a man like us. Here, then, is eternal life--to know that only wise and true God, and you have got to learn how to become Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you. .. God himself, the father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ."
- The Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 342-345, also quoted heavily by the church, see Gospel Principles.
Strange, why is this not taught anymore?
Question: "Don't Mormons believe that God was once a man?"

Hinckley: "I wouldn't say that. There was a little couplet coined, "As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become." Now that's more of a couplet than anything else."
- Interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997, p 3/Z1

God has at least one wife (perhaps more) with whom he has procreated spirit children in the spirit world (see "pre-existence").

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents (Heavenly Father and Mother), and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=1aba862384d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1&contentLocale=0

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 93:29 - 31)

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 3:22)
5 … I, the Lord God, created(organized) all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.
(Pearl of Great Price | Moses 3:5)


7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man's spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.
(Pearl of Great Price | Abraham 5:7)

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Did you see my bullseye pic a page ago? This might be helpful in discerning what LDS believe AS A CHURCH. Some people blur the lines between their own interpretation and church doctrine, because their interpretation makes sense to them, and they can't see it any other way.

Stick close to the center of the bullseye, and encourage others to stick there, too.

Yes but the problem with that is some people have there own interpretation of the standards of work. like for example - being with loved ones after death - he was saying it was in the Doctrine and Covenants, that only those in the Celestial Kingdom get to see there loved ones.