Book of Mormon

[doppelganger]

Everyone knows (if they are honest with themself and don't rationalize it away) what is good and what is not. Follow what you know to be good.

Really? So if I tell you what I know to be "good" and do so honestly, you'll agree with me?

 

[idea]

Where when and to whom? And were you there to hear it yourself?

God can talk directly to you. Yes, I am a member of the LDS church because the Holy Spirit actually bore witness to me of the truth. I admit, it scared the h** out of me the first time! I thought "just listen to the Holy Spirit" was one of those cop out answers for people who don't know what to say. It is not. The Holy Spirit can actually tell you things. What a trip huh?

(No, I have no mental probs, no meds etc... it is real)

 

[idea]

Really? So if I tell you what I know to be "good" and do so honestly, you'll agree with me?

most people agree on what is good. see:
Illustrations of the Tao
God guides and directs us all.

nevertheless, I can only say what I know to be good. info from Spirit, not people.

I am not God, I do not know where you are at / what you will say / how honest you are etc. etc...

 

[doppelganger]

God can talk directly to you. Yes, I am a member of the LDS church because the Holy Spirit actually bore witness to me of the truth. I admit, it scared the h** out of me the first time! I thought "just listen to the Holy Spirit" was one of those cop out answers for people who don't know what to say. It is not. The Holy Spirit can actually tell you things. What a trip huh?

So you audibly heard a voice telling you things? What did the voice sound like? From what direction was it emanating? What did it say?

Should I believe whatever disembodied voices tell me, no matter what they say? If not, how shall I test them?

 

[doppelganger]

most people agree on what is good.

But you didn't answer my question. Your position assumes that everyone will give the same answer to what they know to be good. So if I honestly know something to be good, and tell you, will you then agree with me? Or is there a possibility that you'll find some way to say that what I know to be "good" isn't actually good?

The point is, you're in a logical circle.

 

[Watchmen]

Actually it is.



Which means what . .. precisely?



. . . with the proviso that if I don't believe what you believe, then you think that relationship is worth less than yours. Pretty simple really, and it goes to the gravamen of my complaint. Now give me a justification for the difference. And if your answer is "Smith said God said so" then you'll need to answer my critique of that sort of reasoning from above.

You let the better angel of your nature win out over the divisiveness of your doctrine. And I commend you for doing so.

If you're going to add provisos that don't exist than I'm no longer interested in discussing this.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I was not given a reading at all. :no:

I dunno... you'll not get that from me... but it seems that you got it from dopp.

 

[doppelganger]

If you're going to add provisos that don't exist than I'm no longer interested in discussing this.

Wait a second. If I don't "seal" my marriage (and also follow all the rules idea posted, which are, according to you a precondition for "sealing" my marriage) do you think your "God" views my relationship with my wife and my children in the exact same esteem with which he views the relationships of a "sealed" Mormon family?

It's a yes or no question. Your statements so far have indicated pretty clearly that you think the answer is "no." Do you want to clarify or change that answer?

 

[Watchmen]

Wait a second. If I don't "seal" my marriage (and also follow all the rules idea posted, which are, according to you a precondition for "sealing" my marriage) do you think your "God" views my relationship with my wife and my children in the exact same esteem with which he views the relationships of a "sealed" Mormon family?

It's a yes or no question. Your statements so far have indicated pretty clearly that you think the answer is "no." Do you want to clarify or change that answer?

You are framing it incorrectly and adding things that aren't there, essentially using the same techniques you earlier criticized Richard A. for using.

 

[doppelganger]

You are framing it incorrectly and adding things that aren't there, essentially using the same techniques you earlier criticized Richard A. for using.

Let's take it piece by piece then.

(1) Do you believe that "God" will treat a "sealed" marriage different from a "not sealed" marriage?

(2) If so, in what specific way? And why?

(3) Do I have to "live and receive the ordinances of the Gospel" for my marriage to be sealed?

(4) If so, let's cut to the chase, does that mean I have to be a Mormon in belief and practice, or does your sister "idea" have it wrong?

 

[idea]

So you audibly heard a voice telling you things? What did the voice sound like? From what direction was it emanating? What did it say?

Only once was it an audible voice. Usually it is a warmth, like a warm blanket being draped over you in response to a question. If the answer is “yes” or “you are on the right track” you will feel the Holy Spirit’s presence. If the answer is “no” or “wrong direction” you feel nothing but a confusion of thought, kicking against a brick wall, frustration at not making progress... that is a "no" wrong way etc...

The voice… I was taking a shower, it is one of the places where I have quiet, can think/ponder things without TV / other people barging in interrupting. It is a quiet peaceful place, soothing running water etc. Anyway, I was thinking through a big decision that I had to make about something. Sounds bad, but having a conversation with myself in my head, in my thoughts I asked myself if I should peruse something, if I perused it, would I even make it through? An answer came, three words, “you’ll make it”. Those 3 little words got me through a lot. Anyways, it was as clear as if someone was in the room with me – freaked me out, snapped me out of my little reverie of thoughts, I grabbed a towel wrapped it around myself, my first thought was someone was in the bathroom with me! Then I realized who it was… I mean I was not talking out loud, no one else was at the house, no one else can read thoughts like that… also, I don’t know that I really heard it with my ears, I mean it was as clear as anything you would hear with your ears, but it was more like it went straight into my mind, it was as much inside my head as it was in the room. The voice was a normal human voice, not high or low pitched, just normal sounding. At the time I was not praying, I was not expecting any answers.

I don’t know about asking for a sign from God for things, I guess you get what you need when you need it.

PS - I did go through with it, and I did make it through.

Should I believe whatever disembodied voices tell me, no matter what they say? If not, how shall I test them?

By their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[doppelganger]

Only once was it an audible voice. Usually it is a warmth, like a warm blanket being draped over you in response to a question. If the answer is “yes” or “you are on the right track” you will feel the Holy Spirit’s presence. If the answer is “no” or “wrong direction” you feel nothing but a confusion of thought, kicking against a brick wall, frustration at not making progress... that is a "no" wrong way etc...

That's what I expected. Evangelicals describe the same thing when their Holy Spirit "talks" to them. The deep prayer and longing to be communicated with is the key to inducing this sort of experience. But I'm quite familiar with it.

The voice… I was taking a shower, it is one of the places where I have quiet, can think/ponder things without TV / other people barging in interrupting. It is a quiet peaceful place, soothing running water etc. Anyway, I was thinking through a big decision that I had to make about something. Sounds bad, but having a conversation with myself in my head, in my thoughts I asked myself if I should peruse something, if I perused it, would I even make it through? An answer came, three words, “you’ll make it”. Those 3 little words got me through a lot. Anyways, it was as clear as if someone was in the room with me – freaked me out, snapped me out of my little reverie of thoughts, I grabbed a towel wrapped it around myself, my first thought was someone was in the bathroom with me! Then I realized who it was… I mean I was not talking out loud, no one else was at the house, no one else can read thoughts like that…

So you audibly heard it or you "heard" it in your thoughts?

By their fruits ye shall know them.

But, of course.

 

[Father Heathen]

If someone tells you they love you, but they never do anything for you, they never bring you food when you are sick, they never wish you a happy birthday, they never pick you up onthe side of the road when your car breaks down... if they say "it is all in my heart/mind/soul - do they really love you?

If they refuse to commit to you, refuse to make a vow to you, refuse to share all that they own with you... is that really devotion?

People want the devotion without the sacrifice... You know the worth of something by how much you have to give up to get it...

So you have to be married to someone before they can tell you that they love you, or before they'll do anything for you, or to bring you food, wish you a happy birthday, pick you up off the road, etc?? No wonder Mormons were into polygamy.

 

[Father Heathen]

because Gods plan is to have a marriage between a man and a woman and they can procreate and create lots of children so that his other spirit children can come to the earth.

I've always found it quite creepy how religions treat humanity like some mindless insect colony that should spread and consume like locust.

 

[Father Heathen]

I suppose it depends on how it was expressed. If Mormons are right then don't you think people should be given the honest and true consequences for their actions? As a lawyer, don't you advise your client - even if the advice might be unpleasant?

Even if it were "right" or "true", that wouldn't diminish how vile and disgusting it is. See, I can't accept the idea that the supreme creator being would be such a cretinous ogre. Luckily I know that it's just foolish humans weaving wacky tales.

 

[Father Heathen]

Oh great...the scare tactic.....

Scare tactics and threats is all they have to keep their grip on the power they have over the faithful.

 

[Father Heathen]

You can shorten that to simply "God said so".

You can also shorten "God said so because Father Heathen said so" to "God said so". Do you not realize how easy it is for anyone to claim to speak for god, to write a book and then say it's God's words? And seeing how easy it is, and how successful many have been at it, I don't see why I don't become a "prophet" myself and start my own sect.

 

[Katzpur]

Sorry Katz - I know what you mean now! duh! I am ill so not on top form at mo! Quesiton though - isnt there a limit to how far up the kingdoms you can go if you havent lived your earth life as an LDS, or that is what I was told once anyway.

That all depends. Our Father in Heaven knows our hearts, and also the factors that would interfere with a person accepting the gospel in this life. A person could have been exposed to the gospel and rejected it. We have no way of knowing, though, to what degree he was touched by the Holy Ghost, or if he was at all. God expects all of God's children to sincerely seek for the truth here and now, and I'm sure there will be consequences of some sort for those who reject it after the Holy Ghost has testified to them that it's true. There are millions, though, who never receive the witness of the Holy Ghost in this life. There could be cultural, political or personal barriers that interfere and it's not for us to judge. The only thing we know for sure is that God wants His whole family -- all of His sons and daughters -- back with Him someday and will do everything possible (short of coersion or force) to see that this happens. He will make sure than, in the Spirit World, what was an uneven playing field in this life will be leveled out. No one will have an unfair advantage, but that doesn't give those who have had a fair opportunity in this life an excuse to say, "Well, I'll just wait until after I die to come around."

 

[Father Heathen]

(No, I have no mental probs, no meds etc... it is real)

That's not a healthy way of looking at the problem.

 

[Apex]

Even if it were "right" or "true", that wouldn't diminish how vile and disgusting it is. See, I can't accept the idea that the supreme creator being would be such a cretinous ogre. Luckily I know that's it's just foolish humans weaving wacky tales.

Have you been ignoring everything we have been trying to tell you or do you purposely twist/misinterpret every religious concept in the worst possible way?