Book of Mormon

[idea]

Yes I know that is what you believe - maybe you don't realise this, but technically I am still part of the LDS Church - I haven't officially left yet! People understand what you believe, they just don't believe it themselves. You are viewing this from the point of view of you are right, they are wrong. I am viewing it from a neutral point and the LDS version is more threatening.

I understand, it sounds horrible, like the church using your family to force you to stay with them (JW's and others use this tactic as well). If you do not have a testimony that the sealing ordinance is necessary, if you think the church invented this, then yes, it sounds horrible.

Let's just talk about marriage, what is it? what is required to legalize it?

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
(New Testament | Matthew19:6)

What do you think it takes for God to join two people together?

a question of authority...
AUTHORITY. See also Call, Called of God, Calling; Keys of the Priesthood; Ordain, Ordination; Power; Priesthood
The permission granted to men on earth called or ordained to act for and in behalf of God the Father or Jesus Christ in doing God's work.

I have sent thee, Ex. 3:12–15.
Speak all that I command thee, Ex. 7:2.
He gave the twelve disciples power, Matt. 10:1.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, John 15:16.
Nephi and Lehi preached with great authority, Hel. 5:18.
Nephi, the son of Helaman, was a man of God, having great power and authority from God, Hel. 11:18 (3 Ne. 7:17).
Jesus gave power and authority to twelve Nephites, 3 Ne. 12:1–2.
Joseph Smith was called of God and ordained, D&C 20:2.
No one shall preach my gospel or build up my Church unless he is ordained and it is known to the Church that he has authority, D&C 42:11.
Elders are to preach the gospel, acting in authority, D&C 68:8.
The Melchizedek Priesthood has authority to administer in spiritual things, D&C 107:8, 18–19. What is done by divine authority becomes law, D&C 128:9.
Any who preach or administer for God must be called of God by those in authority, A of F 1:5.
(Guide to the Scriptures | AAuthority.:Entry)

Called of God (see also Authority; Call; Calling; Election; Foreordination; Priesthood, Authority; Priesthood, Qualifying for)
Ex. 3:10 I will send thee unto Pharaoh
Ex. 28:1 take thou unto thee Aaron
Ex. 40:13 Aaron ... anoint him, and sanctify him
Num. 27:23 he laid his hands upon him, and gave him a charge, as the Lord commanded
1 Sam. 16:3 (16:1–13) anoint unto me him whom I name
Jer. 1:5 I ordained thee a prophet
Ezek. 2:4 I do send thee unto them
Amos 7:15 Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy
Matt. 4:21 he saw ... James ... and John ... and he c. them
Luke 6:13 called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve
Luke 10:1 Lord appointed other seventy
John 15:16 I have chosen you, and ordained you
Acts 1:24 Lord ... shew whether of these two thou hast chosen
Acts 6:5 they chose Stephen, a man full of faith
Acts 9:17 Jesus ... hath sent me
Acts 13:2 Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have c. them
2 Cor. 10:8 our authority, which the Lord hath given us
1 Tim. 2:7 I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle
Heb. 5:4 no man taketh this honour unto himself but he that is c.
1 Ne. 2:2 Lord commanded my father, even in a dream
Alma 13:3 they ... are c. with a holy calling
3 Ne. 12:1 these twelve whom I have chosen
D&C 1:17 (20:2) Lord ... c. upon my servant Joseph Smith
D&C 9:14 Stand fast in the work wherewith I have c. you
D&C 20:60 ordained according to the gifts and callings of God
D&C 42:11 except he be ordained by some one who has authority
D&C 90:11 through those who are ordained unto this power
JS-H 1:28 by one who was c.
A of F 5 a man must be c
See also 1 Sam. 3:20; 9:16; 13:14; 15:17; 1 Kgs. 19:16; Isa. 6:8; Luke 9:59; Rom. 10:15; 1 Cor. 1:26; 1 Jn. 5:19; D&C 4:3; 95:5; 105:35.
(Topical Guide | C Called of God:Entry)


Do you think authority is needed for ordinances?

 

[idea]

Question - how long have you been a member?

~ 11 years

 

[zomg]

I cannot believe you have just compared a "relationship" with an ant in Egypt to a Mother-Daughter, Husband-Wife, Father-Son etc relationship! It isn't watered down at all - other Christian denominations believe that if you go to heaven you will be with your family. Simple.

Some do, some don't. I've talked to people who believe we become genderless drones up in heaven who recall being close to certain individuals yet don't remember how. Yes, they were Christians.

Others I have talked to believe there will be no husband/wife in heaven. No marriages. Jesus said it!

 

[Scott C.]

Some do, some don't. I've talked to people who believe we become genderless drones up in heaven who recall being close to certain individuals yet don't remember how. Yes, they were Christians.

Others I have talked to believe there will be no husband/wife in heaven. No marriages. Jesus said it!

I started a "Til death do you part" thread under Latter-day Saints, if anyone is interested.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Some do, some don't. I've talked to people who believe we become genderless drones up in heaven who recall being close to certain individuals yet don't remember how. Yes, they were Christians.

Others I have talked to believe there will be no husband/wife in heaven. No marriages. Jesus said it!

Do you mean that they said that Jesus said it or you think Jesus said it, because if it is the latter, that goes against what you believe.

 

[zomg]

Do you mean that they said that Jesus said it or you think Jesus said it, because if it is the latter, that goes against what you believe.

Jesus said something that can be interpreted as "no married relationships in heaven", yes. Do I interpret it that way? No.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Jesus said something that can be interpreted at "no married relationships in heaven", yes. Do I interpret it that way? No.

Ok...thanks for clearing it!

 

[idea]

Jesus said it -
25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
(New Testament | Mark12:25)

Ensign » 1974 » August Kimball, 1st Pres message, temples and eternal Marriage.

It will be remembered how the Lord answered the hypocritical Sadducees who, trying to trap him, propounded this difficult problem:
The husband died leaving no posterity, and the wife married his brother who also died without seed. She in turn married a third brother, a fourth, a fifth, a sixth, and a seventh all in accordance with the law of Moses, and then the woman of the seven husbands died also. Now the frustrating question is:
“In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.” (Mark 12:23.) ...

Dr. James E. Talmage writes: “The Lord’s meaning was clear, that in the resurrected state there can be no question among the seven brothers as to whose wife for eternity the woman shall be, since all except the first had married her for the duration of mortal life only. … In the resurrection, there will be no marrying nor giving in marriage; for all questions of marital status must be settled before that time, under the authority of the Holy Priesthood, which holds the power to seal in marriage for both time and eternity.” (Jesus the Christ, p. 548.)

Undoubtedly, the first husband married the woman for eternity by a ceremony which was not limited by time. She became a widow at his demise until she should also die and join her husband. Now, she married brother number two, “until death do you part,” and it definitely parted them even before posterity, and he went into the spirit world through the veil and with no wife, for their contract also had been terminated by death. And brothers number three and four and five and six and finally number seven in turn—all married her in temporary marriage, in which ceremonies were the limitations, “so long as you both shall live.” And death terminated what happiness they had had and their promise of future bliss.
How sad! How gloomy!
I knew of one young couple whose promising marriage was ended by a car crash one hour after the ceremony which included those perilous words, “till death do you part.”
Civil marriage is an earthly contract, completed in the death of either party.

 

[Katzpur]

I find it offensive anytime someone tells other people that what is of importance to them is less because they don't believe in X or don't follow ritual Y. I'm a live and let live sort of person when it comes to belief and largely have regarded LDS as innocuous because they had their beliefs and but for the occassional doorstep missionary, largely left other people alone. I think my attention to Mormons has been heightened by the recent refusal of the Church to respect and honor that other people have differing values and beliefs. Perhaps that's part of why I'm bothered by all of this.

In other words, you don't like the Church's position on Proposition 8. Neither do I. But let's not draw a correlation where none exists.

If your church harasses people predicated on its superstitions, then I'll call your church and its followers to account for their superstitions. If your church leaves people alone, then what they believe is none of my business. Does that make sense?

From the perspective of a non-believer, all religious beliefs are "superstitions." What you're saying is that it's harrassment for a Church to teach its members that there are consequences for their behavior.

 

[Apex]

other Christian denominations believe that if you go to heaven you will be with your family. Simple.

Are you sure? From what I have seen, mainstream-Christianity does not believe there will be family units in Heaven. I have even been told there will not be gender in Heaven. Also, mainstream-Christianity, in general, does not believe marriage will continue on to Heaven due to a difference in interpretation of a particular scripture.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Are you sure? From what I have seen, mainstream-Christianity does not believe there will be family units in Heaven. I have even been told there will not be gender in Heaven. Also, mainstream-Christianity, in general, does not believe marriage will continue on to Heaven due to a difference in interpretation of a particular scripture.

The thing with mainstream Christianity is that there is no definite teaching of heaven and hell. Unlike Mormonism where it is a definite fact what they are etc. I have spoken to many Christians who think that if they go to heaven, they will be with their loved ones. There is no set belief on it. Apart from a rough idea of what the states of heaven and hell are.

 

[Apex]

The thing with mainstream Christianity is that there is no definite teaching of heaven and hell. Unlike Mormonism where it is a definite fact what they are etc. I have spoken to many Christians who think that if they go to heaven, they will be with their loved ones. There is no set belief on it. Apart from a rough idea of what the states of heaven and hell are.

I did not mean the specific states of Heaven and Hell. I literally meant they do not believe in marriage after death and many do not believe in gender after death either. It seems you are confusing this with "not being with your loved ones", they are not the same thing. Both mainstream-Christianity and Mormonism believe you will be with your loved ones but that does not mean you will still be married to your husband, retain the gender of female and so on.

Not believing in marriage after death is a fairly universal doctrine in mainstream-Christianity, it is not one of the (many) beliefs that are fluid and change from denomination to denomination.

 

[Watchmen]

Lets simplify this.

Dream Angel. Do you believe the LDS church teaches that if you die and go to the Celestial Kingdom and your mom dies and goes to the Terrestial Kingdom that you two cannot be together?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I did not mean the specific states of Heaven and Hell. I literally meant they do not believe in marriage after death and many do not believe in gender after death either. It seems you are confusing this with "not being with your loved ones", they are not the same thing. Both mainstream-Christianity and Mormonism believe you will be with your loved ones but that does not mean you will still be married to your husband, retain the gender of female and so on.

Not believing in marriage after death is a fairly universal doctrine in mainstream-Christianity, it is not one of the (many) beliefs that are fluid and change from denomination to denomination.

You misread what I said....I know what you meant.

I was only referring to the states of heaven and hell as they only thing that mainstream Christianity has a general view on and even that varies. Most Christians I speak to say "I don't know, my view is" - there is no GENERAL view in mainstream Christianity. Only Mormonism holds a general view.

And what I was told - you can only be "with your loved ones" if you are in the celestial kingdom. So Mormonism doesnt generally teach you can be with your loved ones.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Lets simplify this.

Dream Angel. Do you believe the LDS church teaches that if you die and go to the Celestial Kingdom and your mom dies and goes to the Terrestial Kingdom that you two cannot be together?

That is what I was told, yes!

What I believe is a different matter - my head feels like a spaghetti junction at the moment

 

[Watchmen]

That is what I was told, yes!

What I believe is a different matter - my head feels like a spaghetti junction at the moment

Well - you were told wrong and that seems to be the unanimous conclusion of the LDS here. Now it's up to you to believe what you will.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Well - you were told wrong and that seems to be the unanimous conclusion of the LDS here. Now it's up to you to believe what you will.

I haven't got a clue who to believe!

So simplify for me, from the very beginning, what is the true belief?

But mainstream Christianity still doesn't have a general view on it. You could ask 10people and they would all give you different answers.

 

[Apex]

You misread what I said....I know what you meant.

I was only referring to the states of heaven and hell as they only thing that mainstream Christianity has a general view on and even that varies. Most Christians I speak to say "I don't know, my view is" - there is no GENERAL view in mainstream Christianity. Only Mormonism holds a general view.

Okay. Do you also agree that mainstream-Christianity is united in the belief that there is no Marriage in Heaven?

And what I was told - you can only be "with your loved ones" if you are in the celestial kingdom. So Mormonism doesnt generally teach you can be with your loved ones.

As Watchmen said, you were told wrong. Are you going to accept you were told wrong or are you just going to continue to argue with us?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Okay. Do you also agree that mainstream-Christianity is united in the belief that there is no Marriage in Heaven?

Someone doesn't read properly - look at the post again, I answered that already!

As Watchmen said, you were told wrong. Are you going to accept you were told wrong or are you just going to continue to argue with us?

Hmmmm...how can I accept I was told wrong, when for all I know, you could be wrong! I wasn't arguing, watchmen asked a question, I answered it! You asked me a question, I answered it.

 

[lunamoth]

I think it's a very strange way to put it say that mainstream Christians do not believe there is marriage in heaven. There certainly is not some kind of doctrine that states this. It seems you are talking about the part of the Gospel where Jesus responds to the trap being set by the Sadducees when they ask him about the woman with seven husbands and whose wife she is in heaven.

I'd say the upshot of that whole story is that to ask such things as 'is there marriage in heaven' is to miss the point.

BTW, I (and most other Christians I've spoken to about this) absolutely trust that they will have the same loving relationships in the next life as they have here on earth. If anything, barriers (sin) will be removed...not more barriers put up.