Boyd Packer: Mormons cannot change

[tumbleweed41]

Of course they will "stay on course", until they realize that the recent PR campaign isn't working, and that Prop H8 (and other initiatives) are being held against them. I am sure that some leadership proclaimed similar things regarding race relations in the 60's as well.

Oh, the Mormons can change their doctrine on a dime when the situation requires it, as history has amply demonstrated. They gave up a fundamental tenet of their faith, which appears directly in their scriptures, in order to become a state.

Don't be silly. Remember what Eldon Tanner said:

The church has no intention of changing its doctrine on the Negro. Throughout the history of the original Christian church, the Negro never held the priesthood. There's really nothing we can do to change this. It's a law of God.​

But it is their Prophets who get to receive the special revelations from God...

Brigham Young second President and Prophet:

You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:290; emphasis added)
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be (ibid., 10:110; emphasis added)



June 8 1978, LDS President and Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, after spending many hours in the "Upper Room" of the LDS Temple, claimed that God had removed the curse. All worthy black men could now receive the Priesthood.


Guess it will take another "upper room" revelation for them to see the error of their ways....
​

 

[stillsearching]

I think that Tomato brings up an interesting point. According to the talk Boyd K. Packer says that God wouldn't cause someone to be homosexual. It would be very interesting to find out from his God "how" people "ended up" being homosexual.

Please no one take offense to this. I am just honestly curious how this would be explained in the afterlife. It doesn't make sense that such a thing would be an sin in God's eyes when people were created that way (if that is your belief).

 

[Autodidact]

When I heard this talk I was disappointed that there is still no accounting for, or acknowledging of even the claim that MOST gay people make that they didn't choose to be gay. I mean, I think it's one thing to stick to your guns and stand up for what you believe, and another to repeat it over and over with no apparent attempt to see gay people's point of view. I don't expect the church to change, but after being very close to the issue, I would be interested in, even if not based in science, explanation of where the desires come from, and an acknowledgment that in probably most cases, people are less than happy to discover that they're attracted to the same sex, and have to rip their heart out and turn the world upside down to come to terms with it.

Not me, I'm extremely happy. Were I bisexual, I would choose to live as a lesbian. It has so many advantages for a woman.

The point is not whether it's chosen or not, the point is whether it's wrong or not. It's not. The speaker is wrong. He is condemning people who are not immoral. In that regard, he is immoral himself.

 

[Autodidact]

What if all the lesbians on BYU teams refused to play. Of course that would amount to outing oneself, and I don't think many Mormon woman have that kind of moxy.

Oxymormon? Oh I amuse myself so much.

 

[Autodidact]

I think that Tomato brings up an interesting point. According to the talk Boyd K. Packer says that God wouldn't cause someone to be homosexual. It would be very interesting to find out from his God "how" people "ended up" being homosexual.

Please no one take offense to this. I am just honestly curious how this would be explained in the afterlife. It doesn't make sense that such a thing would be an sin in God's eyes when people were created that way (if that is your belief).

I think it's related to Mormonism's bizarre fixation on reproduction as an important part of human morality. You have to admit, it serves the meme very well.

 

[no-body]

I think that Tomato brings up an interesting point. According to the talk Boyd K. Packer says that God wouldn't cause someone to be homosexual. It would be very interesting to find out from his God "how" people "ended up" being homosexual.

Please no one take offense to this. I am just honestly curious how this would be explained in the afterlife. It doesn't make sense that such a thing would be an sin in God's eyes when people were created that way (if that is your belief).

Ahem, I posted an interesting article on the ex-gay movement a while ago in the resources forum. Mormons and other faiths that buy into this psuedo-science bulldink about being able to change your orientation feel homosexuality is a type of behavioral illness or moral failing that can be changed with enough positive thoughts (pray the gay away)

A few of the more rabid Mormons will fill you in on their thoughts, if you can stomach it. I feel really really bad for the people that would put themselves through that type of mental torture to only end up eventually failing as always happens. But worse of all the children, it should be child abuse for a LGTB teen to be locked into that horror.

 

[yonah34]

Ever heard of the Morgan Affair?

He was a Mason who disappeared in 1826 for publishing masonic secrets. His widow became one of Brigham Young's wives.

 

[Smoke]

Jesus' General shares more quotes from Boyd Packer.

Elder Packer on Miscegenation:

We've always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. The counsel has been wise.
--At BYU​

Elder Packer on Women:

The woman pleading for help needs to see the eternal nature of things and to know that her trials -- however hard to bear -- in the eternal scheme of things may be compared to a very, very bad experience in the second semester of the first grade. She will find no enduring peace in the feminist movement. There she will have no hope. If she knows the plan of redemption, she can be filled with hope.
--Speech to All-Church Coordinating Council​

Elder Packer on The Study of History:

I have a hard time with historians, because historians idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting. The truth destroys. And historians should tell only that part of the truth that is uplifting, and if it's religious history, that's faith-promoting. Historians don't like doing that, and that's why I have a hard time with historians.
--to historian D. Michael Quinn (who was later excommunicated for writing heretical history)

I have on occasion been disappointed when I have read statements that tend to belittle or degrade the Church or past leaders of the Church in writings of those who are supposed to be worthy members of the Church. When I have commented on my disappointment to see that in print, the answer has been. "It was printed before, and it's available, and therefore I saw no reason not to publish it again."
You do not do well to see that it is disseminated. It may be read by those not mature enough for "advanced history," and a testimony in seedling stage may be crushed.
--at the 5th Annual Church Educational System Religious Educators' Symposium​

 

[stillsearching]

Jesus' General shares more quotes from Boyd Packer.

Elder Packer on Miscegenation:

We've always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. The counsel has been wise.
--At BYU​

Elder Packer on Women:

The woman pleading for help needs to see the eternal nature of things and to know that her trials -- however hard to bear -- in the eternal scheme of things may be compared to a very, very bad experience in the second semester of the first grade. She will find no enduring peace in the feminist movement. There she will have no hope. If she knows the plan of redemption, she can be filled with hope.
--Speech to All-Church Coordinating Council​

Elder Packer on The Study of History:

I have a hard time with historians, because historians idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting. The truth destroys. And historians should tell only that part of the truth that is uplifting, and if it's religious history, that's faith-promoting. Historians don't like doing that, and that's why I have a hard time with historians.
--to historian D. Michael Quinn (who was later excommunicated for writing heretical history)

I have on occasion been disappointed when I have read statements that tend to belittle or degrade the Church or past leaders of the Church in writings of those who are supposed to be worthy members of the Church. When I have commented on my disappointment to see that in print, the answer has been. "It was printed before, and it's available, and therefore I saw no reason not to publish it again."
You do not do well to see that it is disseminated. It may be read by those not mature enough for "advanced history," and a testimony in seedling stage may be crushed.
--at the 5th Annual Church Educational System Religious Educators' Symposium​

Quotes such as these can be taken out of context which can give them a very different message. I went to your source page and found it to be an anti-mormon website, which I don't think is giving validity to anything that was said.

 

[Smoke]

Quotes such as these can be taken out of context which can give them a very different message. I went to your source page and found it to be an anti-mormon website, which I don't think is giving validity to anything that was said.

Jesus' General may be anti-Mormon, but he's not specifically anti-Mormon.

 

[stillsearching]

Jesus' General may be anti-Mormon, but he's not specifically anti-Mormon.

But still anti-mormon which takes away the objective look at what was said and can cause misinterpretation.

 

[Smoke]

Elder Packer on Miscegenation:

We've always counseled in the Church for our Mexican members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry Polynesians. The counsel has been wise.
--At BYU​

Mormon source for this quote: Views on Intermarriage

Elder Packer on Women:

The woman pleading for help needs to see the eternal nature of things and to know that her trials -- however hard to bear -- in the eternal scheme of things may be compared to a very, very bad experience in the second semester of the first grade. She will find no enduring peace in the feminist movement. There she will have no hope. If she knows the plan of redemption, she can be filled with hope.
--Speech to All-Church Coordinating Council​

The full text of Packer's "Talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council" is here: Talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council

Elder Packer on The Study of History:
I have a hard time with historians, because historians idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting. The truth destroys. And historians should tell only that part of the truth that is uplifting, and if it's religious history, that's faith-promoting. Historians don't like doing that, and that's why I have a hard time with historians.
--to historian D. Michael Quinn (who was later excommunicated for writing heretical history)​

Obviously, there is no Mormon source for this, as the source has been excommunicated. You can find the interview with him here: The Mormons . Interviews . D. Michael Quinn | PBS

I have on occasion been disappointed when I have read statements that tend to belittle or degrade the Church or past leaders of the Church in writings of those who are supposed to be worthy members of the Church. When I have commented on my disappointment to see that in print, the answer has been. "It was printed before, and it's available, and therefore I saw no reason not to publish it again."
You do not do well to see that it is disseminated. It may be read by those not mature enough for "advanced history," and a testimony in seedling stage may be crushed.
--at the 5th Annual Church Educational System Religious Educators' Symposium​

The full text of "Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled" is here: http://www.cumorah.org/libros/ingles/Let_Not_Your_Heart_Be_Troubled_-_Boyd_K_Packer.html

 

[Smoke]

But still anti-mormon which takes away the objective look at what was said and can cause misinterpretation.

You would agree, then, that Boyd Packer, being anti-gay, cannot be objective about homosexuality.

 

[Autodidact]

I have a hard time with historians, because historians idolize the truth. The truth is not uplifting.
​

Wow, that's a doozie. You could have a fascinating discussion about the implications of that single statement.

 

[Autodidact]

Quotes such as these can be taken out of context which can give them a very different message. I went to your source page and found it to be an anti-mormon website, which I don't think is giving validity to anything that was said.

The issue is whether the information is correct, not where it came from. If you can supply some context that salvages Mr. Packer's credibility, please do so.

 

[Autodidact]

Full context:

The person who interviewed me was apostle Boyd K. Packer. We were together about 45 minutes, and almost all of that was a lecture. He began by asking me what position I was going to be hired in or was being considered for, and I said it was as a professor in the history department. The very next words out of his mouth were -- and I'm not exaggerating; these were seared into my memory -- Elder Packer said, "I have a hard time with historians, because historians idolize the truth." I almost sunk into my chair. I mean, that statement just bowled me over. Then he went on to say, quoting him as accurately as I can ...: "The truth is not uplifting. The truth destroys. And historians should tell only that part of the truth that is uplifting, and if it's religious history, that's faith-promoting." And he said, "Historians don't like doing that, and that's why I have a hard time with historians." And the conversation just went from there. He occasionally would give me the opportunity to respond to what he was saying, and I would talk about putting things in context, and that one could deal with a controversy or a sensitive area, or even a negative experience in the past, but put it into context. I said that it's a question of do you talk about this in a sentence, a paragraph, a page, or do you just have a footnote reference to it? And I said, "That's a decision that each individual historian will make, but," I said, "I cannot agree with the idea that I should conceal this evidence." And he just shook his head, and he said, "You're wrong," ... and he went back to what he had started with to begin with. ...

What a screwed up individual.

 

[stillsearching]

You would agree, then, that Boyd Packer, being anti-gay, cannot be objective about homosexuality.

Completely agree with you.

 

[stillsearching]

I am reading a book about mormonism and line of thinking that goes into both the view of those that are believers and those that are not.
It talks of the fact that the leaders of the church are fallible. That members of the church (and those that are not) should not confuse the personal thoughts and feelings of those in leadership with doctrine.
Sadly, there are many that view these leaders as infallible and take everything they say as doctrine.

The quote on marriage with people marrying within their race wasn't doctrine. It is more of a suggestion to avoid issues.

 

[Smoke]

Sadly, there are many that view these leaders as infallible and take everything they say as doctrine.

And that's a point Katzpur has made on RF before. I don't remember her exact wording, but basically she said that in the Catholic Church the Pope is infallible but nobody believes it; in the LDS Church the Prophet is fallible, but nobody believes it.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

And that's a point Katzpur has made on RF before. I don't remember her exact wording, but basically she said that in the Catholic Church the Pope is infallible but nobody believes it; in the LDS Church the Prophet is fallible, but nobody believes it.

That's strange. What makes him a prophet instead of the leader who makes pronouncements?