Boyd Packer: Mormons cannot change

[Watchmen]

Not in the least. When the Mormon leadership realizes that we're entitled to the same rights as everybody else, and not just the few they're willing to concede, and when they publicly apologize and work to support full equality in an effort to repair the harm they've done, maybe.

As of now, they're just hateful old scumbags trying to pass as decent people.

So Mormons are scumbags. Got it.

 

[Smoke]

So Mormons are scumbags. Got it.

That's not what I said and you knew perfectly well that it's not what I said.
I'm referring to the leadership. You don't have to like what I say, but I do expect you not to misrepresent it.

 

[Watchmen]

That's not what I said and you knew perfectly well that it's not what I said.
I'm referring to the leadership. You don't have to like what I say, but I do expect you not to misrepresent it.

All Mormon leaders are scumbags. Got it.

Comments like yours make it hard for me to support your cause. It shouldn't, but it does. Don't you think you should try honey instead of vinegar?

 

[Smoke]

All Mormon leaders are scumbags. Got it.

The top leadership, yes. Whether they're instigating this **** or just playing along with it, they're all culpable.

Comments like yours make it hard for me to support your cause. It shouldn't, but it does.

I don't really give a damn, and I don't really think it's my comments that make it hard for you, either. I think it's the conflict between your loyalty to these old ******** and what you know to be the right thing. Otherwise, you wouldn't be swayed so easily.

Don't you think you should try honey instead of vinegar?

No. I'm not interested in trying to appease these people or their followers. If you're more offended by what I say than by what they say, that's on you. Don't try to blame me for your moral failings.

 

[Watchmen]

The top leadership, yes. Whether they're instigating this **** or just playing along with it, they're all culpable.

I don't really give a damn, and I don't really think it's my comments that make it hard for you, either. I think it's the conflict between your loyalty to these old ******** and what you know to be the right thing. Otherwise, you wouldn't be swayed so easily.

No. I'm not interested in trying to appease these people or their followers. If you're more offended by what I say than by what they say, that's on you. Don't try to blame me for your moral failings.

I opposed Prop 8, etc. . . . and this is how you act. Not a good way to get and maintain support.

 

[stillsearching]

You know, Watchmen, you are not really using honey either. I am sure if some of your core beliefs were being voted against it would upset you.
According to the press release you should be kind anyway.

I guess this is just going to be one of those things that stays as it is until the bible changes or if Auto is correct, it suits their purposes.

 

[tomato1236]

So Mormons are scumbags. Got it.

Dang it. Well at least I wasn't hateful for a day or so. Now I'm a scumbag. You can't really differentiate between church leaders who are "going along with it" and the membership (me) because well, I go along with it, too. Not only do I go along with it, but I agree with it after continually studying the issue. I would beat around the bush about it, but since you (smoke) apparently "don't really give a damn" and you're "not interested in trying to appease these people or their followers", then I don't think you can expect anything but reciprocation of those sentiments. Sometimes the best way to get your way, Smoke, is to love your enemies.

 

[Duck]

All Mormon leaders are scumbags. Got it.

Comments like yours make it hard for me to support your cause. It shouldn't, but it does. Don't you think you should try honey instead of vinegar?

And when civil rights are being voted away, funded largely by religious organizations with the Mormon church as their frontman, what are LGBT people to do, kiss your (the religious organizations) *** and ask politely not to be relegated to second class status? What exactly do you think the LGBT movement has done for the last 40 years or so? It wasn't until the last 10 years (plus or minus) that the LGBT movement began to make headway into equality and acceptance in society. Oddly, that is when the religious folks started to organize to vote civil rights away. Prior to that, the religious were happy with just raiding bars, arresting gays for "unnatural copulation", beating gays to death in a "panic", and sentencing gays to death because a life sentence wasn't "punishment" if you are attracted to the same sex. All of course while proclaiming to "love" the sinner and hate the sin.

Personally, I am with Smoke. If your religious leaders are spouting a bunch of hate filled rhetoric, and you tithe to that religion, that means you support the words and actions of that church and its leaders. In my mind, supporting Prop 8 or not, that pretty much means you are culpable in passing Prop 8 and every other anti-equality measure out there.

 

[Autodidact]

I opposed Prop 8, etc. . . . and this is how you act. Not a good way to get and maintain support.

I don't know your personal views, but I do think your money paid for opposition to it, correct?

 

[tomato1236]

I don't know your personal views, but I do think your money paid for opposition to it, correct?

Not correct. The church made no monetary donations to the campaign. All monetary contributions came from private donors. The church did not compel its members to donate. It did not require its members to vote one way or the other. It did not follow up to see who voted how or threaten disciplinary action of any kind. The church doesn't vote. The people vote. The church did, if I remember correctly, send a letter to its congregations encouraging them to vote on the issue. I don't see a problem with that since they didn't say "go to the polls and vote yes."

 

[tomato1236]

And when civil rights are being voted away, funded largely by religious organizations with the Mormon church as their frontman, what are LGBT people to do, kiss your (the religious organizations) *** and ask politely not to be relegated to second class status? What exactly do you think the LGBT movement has done for the last 40 years or so? It wasn't until the last 10 years (plus or minus) that the LGBT movement began to make headway into equality and acceptance in society. Oddly, that is when the religious folks started to organize to vote civil rights away. Prior to that, the religious were happy with just raiding bars, arresting gays for "unnatural copulation", beating gays to death in a "panic", and sentencing gays to death because a life sentence wasn't "punishment" if you are attracted to the same sex. All of course while proclaiming to "love" the sinner and hate the sin.

Personally, I am with Smoke. If your religious leaders are spouting a bunch of hate filled rhetoric, and you tithe to that religion, that means you support the words and actions of that church and its leaders. In my mind, supporting Prop 8 or not, that pretty much means you are culpable in passing Prop 8 and every other anti-equality measure out there.

I don't think it's fair to equate the actions of a few extremist and hateful people whose hate is demonstrated by beating gay people to death with the teachings of a church who condemns those same actions and teaches love to its members. If a church begins teaching its members that they should attack gay people in the streets and such, then yes, that's a church teaching hate.

ksl.com - LDS Church condemns bullying of gay community

Here is the church's recent statement in response to accusations that its teachings are dangerous and cause harm. There is nothing hateful in it. There are probably beliefs you disagree with, but nothing that will incite violence or mean-spirited treatment of gay people by LDS members.

 

[no-body]

ksl.com - LDS Church condemns bullying of gay community

Here is the church's recent statement in response to accusations that its teachings are dangerous and cause harm. There is nothing hateful in it. There are probably beliefs you disagree with, but nothing that will incite violence or mean-spirited treatment of gay people by LDS members.

Somewhat commendable I guess but more of the usual sneaky language from the LDS there.

What about psychological/emotional abuse? "We don't hate gays we just want them to not be with the ones they love and we want the government to support this "

 

[Autodidact]

Not correct. The church made no monetary donations to the campaign. All monetary contributions came from private donors. The church did not compel its members to donate. It did not require its members to vote one way or the other. It did not follow up to see who voted how or threaten disciplinary action of any kind. The church doesn't vote. The people vote. The church did, if I remember correctly, send a letter to its congregations encouraging them to vote on the issue. I don't see a problem with that since they didn't say "go to the polls and vote yes."

I'm sorry, I was mistaken. Apparently the church's role was to exhort its members to donate and promise them blessings for doing so.

Two members of the church's second-highest governing body, the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, quoted from Mormon scripture on the sanctity of marriage as they laid out a week-by-week strategy for boosting Mormon involvement before the Nov. 4 election in voter registration efforts, phone banks and distributing campaign materials.
“What we're about is the work of the Lord, and He will bless you for your involvement,” apostle M. Russell Ballard said during the hour-long meeting, which was broadcast to church buildings in California, Utah, Hawaii and Idaho.

L.A. Times
​

 

[Smoke]

I opposed Prop 8, etc. . . . and this is how you act. Not a good way to get and maintain support.

If I have to kiss Boyd Packer's *** to get your support, I'd rather not have your support, and if you think all LGBT people should be deprived of equality under the law because you don't like me, then you're a failure as a human being.

 

[Smoke]

Sometimes the best way to get your way, Smoke, is to love your enemies.

Really? If I were nicer, you'd change your opinion and stand up to your leadership? If that's how it is, neither your opinion nor your support is worth anything anyway.

 

[tomato1236]

Really? If I were nicer, you'd change your opinion and stand up to your leadership? If that's how it is, neither your opinion nor your support is worth anything anyway.

Oh. Ok.

 

[tomato1236]

I'm sorry, I was mistaken. Apparently the church's role was to exhort its members to donate and promise them blessings for doing so.

L.A. Times
​

Yep. I don't know that they specifically asked for donations, per se, but yeah, they encouraged involvement. I think I mentioned that's what the letter to the congregations said. Go vote. Even if they asked for donations, I don't see a problem with that. Certainly not on the same level as using tithing funds to take political action.

Also, I'm not sure I understand the problem here. I understand you feel that supporters of traditional marriage who vote for it are limiting your rights. I can see that point of view. I don't, however, understand what you expect us all to do. Just stay out of it? We're citizens! We're voting according to our consciences. You're voting according to yours. You have checks in place in case the majority votes for something unconstitutional which is unfair to the minority. There are some pretty wealthy mormons out there, as I'm sure there were some pretty hefty contributors to the prop 8 opposition. Let the system do its work.

 

[AuroraWillow]

Just stay out of it? We're citizens! We're voting according to our consciences.

The difference is that by voting for traditional marriage you're essentially forcing your viewpoint on all people who are not Christian. People who are for gay marriage are not forcing their position on anyone - gay people don't expect to walk into a mormon church and be able to demand to be married there. You are looking to negatively affect other people, while the rest of us are not looking to affect you at all.

 

[tomato1236]

According to that article, only 40% of the donations were from Mormons. I guess it's not just us.

 

[no-body]

Also, I'm not sure I understand the problem here. I understand you feel that supporters of traditional marriage who vote for it are limiting your rights. I can see that point of view. I don't, however, understand what you expect us all to do. Just stay out of it? We're citizens! We're voting according to our consciences. You're voting according to yours. You have checks in place in case the majority votes for something unconstitutional which is unfair to the minority. There are some pretty wealthy mormons out there, as I'm sure there were some pretty hefty contributors to the prop 8 opposition. Let the system do its work.

You can do whatever you want but if you act like bigots your organization is going to be treated as such.