Boyd Packer: Mormons cannot change

[tomato1236]

The difference is that by voting for traditional marriage you're essentially forcing your viewpoint on all people who are not Christian. People who are for gay marriage are not forcing their position on anyone - gay people don't expect to walk into a mormon church and be able to demand to be married there. You are looking to negatively affect other people, while the rest of us are not looking to affect you at all.

Haha what is voting, but an effort to affect the world with your viewpoint? So we shouldn't vote?

 

[tomato1236]

You can do whatever you want but if you act like bigots your organization is going to be treated as such.

big·ot

   https://secure.reference.com/sso/register_pop.html?source=favorites/ˈbɪg

ət/ Show Spelled[big-uh

t] Show IPA
–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.


We are tolerant. On the other hand, I'm not feeling very tolerated.

 

[AuroraWillow]

Haha what is voting, but an effort to affect the world with your viewpoint? So we shouldn't vote?

I'm not saying we shouldn't vote. I'm saying that as a moral human being, you shouldn't vote for things that limit the rights of people who aren't a danger to anyone at all just because a book that has no bearing on law says it's "bad."

I didn't realize it was too much to ask.

Honestly, what harm do you feel will come to you if two people of the same sex couple? And, if it's not going to do any harm, then why would you be against it? Just for the sake of it?

 

[no-body]

big·ot

   /ˈbɪg

ət/ Show Spelled[big-uh

t] Show IPA
–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.


We are tolerant. On the other hand, I'm not feeling very tolerated.

Yes we all understand you think being prejudiced because your prejudiced is unfair, that is par for the course.

I think it's the height of irony that you guys are judging without wanting to be judged.

 

[tomato1236]

I'm not saying we shouldn't vote. I'm saying that as a moral human being, you shouldn't vote for things that limit the rights of people who aren't a danger to anyone at all just because a book that has no bearing on law says it's "bad."

I didn't realize it was too much to ask.

Honestly, what harm do you feel will come to you if two people of the same sex couple? And, if it's not going to do any harm, then why would you be against it? Just for the sake of it?

No more harm than will come to me where abortion is legal without exception. Not all issues are based on what will or will not harm me.

 

[AuroraWillow]

No more harm than will come to me where abortion is legal without exception. Not all issues are based on what will or will not harm me.

Then what exactly is your justification?

 

[Smoke]

Also, I'm not sure I understand the problem here. I understand you feel that supporters of traditional marriage who vote for it are limiting your rights. I can see that point of view. I don't, however, understand what you expect us all to do. Just stay out of it? We're citizens! We're voting according to our consciences.

It's not your voting that's the problem. It's your consciences. The fact that you have a right to any opinion you want doesn't mean you're exempt from criticism for it.

According to that article, only 40% of the donations were from Mormons. I guess it's not just us.

And 2% of the population are Mormons. So Mormons, on average, are 20 times worse than the general population.

No, it's not just Mormons. Nobody ever said it was. But "he did it too" is not an adult argument. You are responsible for your actions. Your leaders are responsible for theirs. Your co-religionists are responsible for theirs.

 

[Smoke]

big·ot

   https://secure.reference.com/sso/register_pop.html?source=favorites/ˈbɪg

ət/ Show Spelled[big-uh

t] Show IPA
–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.


We are tolerant. On the other hand, I'm not feeling very tolerated.

Criticism isn't intolerance. Your church, with your support, is intolerant of LGBTs. With your approval, they actively work to harm LGBTs by spreading disinformation and by trying to deprive us of equal treatment under the law. Nobody is treating you like that. If you feel persecuted just because people criticize your opinions, imagine how you'd holler if anybody were as intolerant of you as your church is of us.

 

[tomato1236]

Then what exactly is your justification?

There are a couple of reasons.

1. It violates what I've been taught to be right. (I understand this is a poor argument from a legal perspective, or a logical one.)
2. It goes against my religious convictions, which I hold and value very highly.
3. I feel it is important to uphold what we believe to be true and good and moral, so if there were a similar prop 8 type legislation in Utah, I would vote.
4. Through introspection and reasoning, I have determined that there is a natural aversion in me and others which it is possible to overcome (and should be overcome to facilitate understanding and tolerance). This aversion is not the result of cultural norms, familial teachings, religious tenets, predisposition to prejudice or anything else I can identify as a cause, except that my natural being is physically, emotionally and spiritually opposed to the idea of homosexuality.
5. There is still not conclusive scientific proof (that I am currently aware of) that homosexuality is completely out of the control of individuals. I will be doing some (unbiased) research over the next few months for a research paper citing specific studies, and as many as possible. This is for my own understanding of the issue, the work that has been done, and where I should go next in my actions or lack thereof in the context of homosexuality. I think we should legalize gay-marriage when it's proven that it's as inborn and unchangeable as race or sex.
6. I feel (honestly) that there is a more emotional drive to the gay-marriage end than a fight for "rights" or against "hate", etc. I feel that before we go changing the law, we should try to address the real source of the gay-anger. Once gay marriage is legal, will everything be terrific and resolute for homosexual people? I mean, is that the whole issue here?

 

[AuroraWillow]

All of your reasoning is poor from a legal perspective.

Basically what I hear you saying is "it shouldn't be legal because I personally disagree with it." And then you complain when people call you a bigot?

And, people are emotionally invested in this issue because it affects their lives. Do you really not expect them to be emotionally invested in something that's so important and central to the way they live their life?

 

[Autodidact]

Yep. I don't know that they specifically asked for donations, per se, but yeah, they encouraged involvement. I think I mentioned that's what the letter to the congregations said. Go vote. Even if they asked for donations, I don't see a problem with that. Certainly not on the same level as using tithing funds to take political action.

Also, I'm not sure I understand the problem here. I understand you feel that supporters of traditional marriage who vote for it are limiting your rights. I can see that point of view. I don't, however, understand what you expect us all to do. Just stay out of it? We're citizens! We're voting according to our consciences. You're voting according to yours. You have checks in place in case the majority votes for something unconstitutional which is unfair to the minority. There are some pretty wealthy mormons out there, as I'm sure there were some pretty hefty contributors to the prop 8 opposition. Let the system do its work.

In general, I don't think people should try to restrict other people's rights because of their own religious prohibitions. Muslims think God doesn't want you to eat pork. I don't think they should vote to make eating pork illegal. What they should do is not eat pork. In the same way, if you believe that God doesn't want you to marry a man, you should not marry a man. You should not vote against my right to marry a woman. I believe doing so is anti-freedom and wrong. So what I expect you to do is to follow your own religious conscience, not enact or defend laws that require me to follow your religious restrictions.

 

[Autodidact]

According to that article, only 40% of the donations were from Mormons. I guess it's not just us.

"But mommy, Johnny did it too!"
"If Johnny jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge, Billie, would you do it too?"

 

[Autodidact]

Haha what is voting, but an effort to affect the world with your viewpoint? So we shouldn't vote?

You should vote, but you should not vote to impose your religious restrictions on people who do not belong to your religion--that's wrong.

 

[Autodidact]

No more harm than will come to me where abortion is legal without exception. Not all issues are based on what will or will not harm me.

Not just you, tomato, anyone. Two people of the same sex loving each other and making a lifetime commitment to support one another harms no one. Who are you to stop them?

 

[Autodidact]

There are a couple of reasons.

1. It violates what I've been taught to be right. (I understand this is a poor argument from a legal perspective, or a logical one.)

It's no argument, unless you think you should be prohibited from eating pork, which I was taught is wrong.

2. It goes against my religious convictions, which I hold and value very highly.

How can what I do go against your religious convictions? No one's asking you to marry a man.

3. I feel it is important to uphold what we believe to be true and good and moral, so if there were a similar prop 8 type legislation in Utah, I would vote.

You feel it's important to impose your morality on other people? Didn't your mama teach you that's wrong?

4. Through introspection and reasoning, I have determined that there is a natural aversion in me and others which it is possible to overcome (and should be overcome to facilitate understanding and tolerance). This aversion is not the result of cultural norms, familial teachings, religious tenets, predisposition to prejudice or anything else I can identify as a cause, except that my natural being is physically, emotionally and spiritually opposed to the idea of homosexuality.

So what? I feel the same way about caraway seeds; should you be prohibited from eating them? Come to think of it, I feel the same way about your sex life, but I'm not voting to prohibit you from marrying.

5. There is still not conclusive scientific proof (that I am currently aware of) that homosexuality is completely out of the control of individuals. I will be doing some (unbiased) research over the next few months for a research paper citing specific studies, and as many as possible. This is for my own understanding of the issue, the work that has been done, and where I should go next in my actions or lack thereof in the context of homosexuality. I think we should legalize gay-marriage when it's proven that it's as inborn and unchangeable as race or sex.

So what? Since it's perfectly moral, who cares?

6. I feel (honestly) that there is a more emotional drive to the gay-marriage end than a fight for "rights" or against "hate", etc. I feel that before we go changing the law, we should try to address the real source of the gay-anger. Once gay marriage is legal, will everything be terrific and resolute for homosexual people? I mean, is that the whole issue here?

No, we're seeking equality under the law in all areas. This is just one of them.

 

[tomato1236]

"But mommy, Johnny did it too!"
"If Johnny jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge, Billie, would you do it too?"

Heh well no, but if Johnny got buff by working out a lot, I would work out, too. If he got wealthy by holding a steady job and getting a good education, I would show up for work and go to college, too.

 

[tomato1236]

In general, I don't think people should try to restrict other people's rights because of their own religious prohibitions. Muslims think God doesn't want you to eat pork. I don't think they should vote to make eating pork illegal. What they should do is not eat pork. In the same way, if you believe that God doesn't want you to marry a man, you should not marry a man. You should not vote against my right to marry a woman. I believe doing so is anti-freedom and wrong. So what I expect you to do is to follow your own religious conscience, not enact or defend laws that require me to follow your religious restrictions.

I understand.

 

[tomato1236]

Not just you, tomato, anyone. Two people of the same sex loving each other and making a lifetime commitment to support one another harms no one. Who are you to stop them?

Just one voter. That's all. I really don't have much power to stop them, considering that if it's truly a denial of fair rights, the judiciary system will ensure that the law is overturned...right?

 

[Autodidact]

Heh well no, but if Johnny got buff by working out a lot, I would work out, too. If he got wealthy by holding a steady job and getting a good education, I would show up for work and go to college, too.

Oh, I thought you were making an excuse. So you're saying that supporting the prop 8 effort is a good thing?

 

[Autodidact]

Just one voter. That's all. I really don't have much power to stop them, considering that if it's truly a denial of fair rights, the judiciary system will ensure that the law is overturned...right?

You have the power of one vote, and it's your responsibility to use it correctly. Using it to impose your religious taboos on non-Mormons is wrong, so you should not vote to do so.