Boys will be boys, so get used to it. . . Rape that is.

[Father Heathen]

There is more to this than meets the eye.
It seems half the community is involved in the row.

Well that made my blood boil. How do people still hold this attitude in a modern, civilized society and still able look themselves in the mirror?

It's just like the recent riots of Penn State over the firing of their coach, as if chasing balls around was a more important matter than the sexual abuse of children.

 

[Father Heathen]

For example, if the rapist is rich and the victim is poor, or if the boy is popular and the girl is not

Maybe he was good at chasing balls around? That tends to make schools go ga-ga.

 

[Songbird]

What horrifies me in this thread is the same thing that horrifies me in real life - the first reaction some have in questioning the veracity of the allegation before any other kind of reaction. It's not worth my time to point out this key component of rape culture in an online setting; I'll focus on the laws and real life dialogue that need addressing.

But it reminded me of my first job when I was 14, and my boss molested me. When I summoned up the confidence to tell my parents, they didn't believe me. The years it's taken me to undo that sense of unworthiness for a fairly minor form of assault (compared to rape) demonstrated a culture so steeped in gender roles we often don't see it. And not being believed was worse than the actual assaults, because it both empowered the assaulter while increasing my powerlessness.

And my experience isn't rare.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What horrifies me in this thread is the same thing that horrifies me in real life - the first reaction some have in questioning the veracity of the allegation before any other kind of reaction. It's not worth my time to point out this key component of rape culture in an online setting; I'll focus on the laws and real life dialogue that need addressing.

But it reminded me of my first job when I was 14, and my boss molested me. When I summoned up the confidence to tell my parents, they didn't believe me. The years it's taken me to undo that sense of unworthiness for a fairly minor form of assault (compared to rape) demonstrated a culture so steeped in gender roles we often don't see it. And not being believed was worse than the actual assaults, because it both empowered the assaulter while increasing my powerlessness.

And my experience isn't rare.

No. It isn't rare.

I've moved past the horrified stage into vacillating between numbness and ferocity. That's as far as my emotions go. But I like you also care more deeply about public policy and raising my voice wherever I go. In truth, I, you, the girls in the story, girls who have survived FGM....we all OWN our sexuality, but we also have to fight for it and to defend it.

And lest anyone assume this is a male-bashing post, I am speaking against the social order...not men. Y'all are victimized by rape culture, too.

 

[Me Myself]

No. It isn't rare.

I've moved past the horrified stage into vacillating between numbness and ferocity. That's as far as my emotions go. But I like you also care more deeply about public policy and raising my voice wherever I go. In truth, I, you, the girls in the story, girls who have survived FGM....we all OWN our sexuality, but we also have to fight for it and to defend it.

And lest anyone assume this is a male-bashing post, I am speaking against the social order...not men. Y'all are victimized by rape culture, too.

I say we need tough love from time to time too.

Like, wallet hurting jail timing tough love.

When it is required, cruelty as such of taking advantage of a frail individual or letting this happen must be punished severely and taken as an example.

 

[Songbird]

No. It isn't rare.

I've moved past the horrified stage into vacillating between numbness and ferocity. That's as far as my emotions go. But I like you also care more deeply about public policy and raising my voice wherever I go. In truth, I, you, the girls in the story, girls who have survived FGM....we all OWN our sexuality, but we also have to fight for it and to defend it.

And lest anyone assume this is a male-bashing post, I am speaking against the social order...not men. Y'all are victimized by rape culture, too.

Numbness and ferocity is probably a more accurate sum of my feelings.

And it's absolutely not about man-bashing. Some of the most virulent women-haters I've met have been women. My mom was the first person I told about my boss when I was 14, and she dismissed it as exaggeration. I think it was due to a combination of being overwhelmed by her own life, her apprehension and denial at tackling what happened to me, and probably a fear that pressing charges would only be harmful to me or our family.

 

[Songbird]

That's because most of us live in the real word; you're welcome to join us.

Apparently it was.

Heh, you live in the real "word", eh?

Ah, I love the ignore function.

 

[Sunstone]

That's because most of us live in the real word....

Or not, as the case may be.

 

[Alceste]

What horrifies me in this thread is the same thing that horrifies me in real life - the first reaction some have in questioning the veracity of the allegation before any other kind of reaction. It's not worth my time to point out this key component of rape culture in an online setting; I'll focus on the laws and real life dialogue that need addressing.

But it reminded me of my first job when I was 14, and my boss molested me. When I summoned up the confidence to tell my parents, they didn't believe me. The years it's taken me to undo that sense of unworthiness for a fairly minor form of assault (compared to rape) demonstrated a culture so steeped in gender roles we often don't see it. And not being believed was worse than the actual assaults, because it both empowered the assaulter while increasing my powerlessness.

And my experience isn't rare.

In fairness, there were very few details provided in the original story. Most people who were dubious were simply requesting more information, not rejecting the accusation. With so little information, assuming she was raped would have been as wrong as assuming she wasn't. That he confessed, that there was a witness to the girl's condition after the assault, that there was physical evidence of the crime, that it was immediately reported, and that he was TWICE convicted of rape was crucial information nobody who originally questioned the OP had access to.

In my case, although I normally give rape victims the benefit of the doubt, I also considered that Sweden has recently hit the headlines for asserting that consensual sex without a condom is not only a "rape", but a crime so heinous it is worth of millions of Euros worth of legal wrangling and an international arrest warrant.

Anyway, for my own part, I didn't intend to play "blame the victim" at all, I just wanted enough detail to understand what happened. Now that more detail has been provided, I am completely convinced (and disgusted).

 

[Alceste]

Let me clear that up for you:
The real world, I meant to to say most of us live in the real world.

You can ignore me all you want to, but it won't make what I said any less true.

What are you on about? Are you saying that in this "real world" you live in, it's right and proper that an entire community rally around a twice convicted serial rapist and harass, bully and persecute his victims until their entire family has to move out of town?

No, most of us don't live in that world, however "real" it may seem to you.

 

[Songbird]

In fairness, there were very few details provided in the original story. Most people who were dubious were simply requesting more information, not rejecting the accusation. With so little information, assuming she was raped would have been as wrong as assuming she wasn't. That he confessed, that there was a witness to the girl's condition after the assault, that there was physical evidence of the crime, that it was immediately reported, and that he was TWICE convicted of rape was crucial information nobody who originally questioned the OP had access to.

In my case, although I normally give rape victims the benefit of the doubt, I also considered that Sweden has recently hit the headlines for asserting that consensual sex without a condom is not only a "rape", but a crime so heinous it is worth of millions of Euros worth of legal wrangling and an international arrest warrant.

Anyway, for my own part, I didn't intend to play "blame the victim" at all, I just wanted enough detail to understand what happened. Now that more detail has been provided, I am completely convinced (and disgusted).

Oh, I agree. My response was directed at two things - a comment after the second article was posted, and at people's reactions in the article.

 

[Sunstone]

Let me clear that up for you:
The real world, I meant to to say most of us live in the real world.

You can ignore me all you want to, but it won't make what I said any less true.

Your real world has a disgusting resemblance to a lynching. And, by the way, you don't speak for "most of us". So stuff that arrogance where it belongs.

 

[fallingblood]

Oh, I agree. My response was directed at two things - a comment after the second article was posted, and at people's reactions in the article.

I know for me, after seeing the second article, I was hoping to find something that would make it look less bad than it was. And that is simply because I don't want to believe that people can be that horrible; that intolerant, and really, that hateful. To me, that is just dumbfounding how a whole community could be so spiteful. Especially when it is so easy to see how wrong it all is, how the school's actions, and the communities actions are just wrong. Really, I was not excepting this story to actually be this bad and was hoping that it was just sensationalism (which, at least in the United States, happens quite often).

 

[Drolefille]

I take it you've grown accustomed to the taste of foot by now.

Were you just bored today because your favorite cartoons weren't on?
You've posted nothing in this thread but doubt about the victim, and some sort of sublimation of your anger at yourself for being so very wrong.

I know for me, after seeing the second article, I was hoping to find something that would make it look less bad than it was. And that is simply because I don't want to believe that people can be that horrible; that intolerant, and really, that hateful. To me, that is just dumbfounding how a whole community could be so spiteful. Especially when it is so easy to see how wrong it all is, how the school's actions, and the communities actions are just wrong. Really, I was not excepting this story to actually be this bad and was hoping that it was just sensationalism (which, at least in the United States, happens quite often).

And this is really common, this sense of denial "it cannot be that bad, people can't be that horrible." But unfortunately it is frequently that bad and some people are that horrible and when people question victims, even out of innocent motives, they actually allow all the bad stuff to continue.

 

[Me Myself]

Were you just bored today because your favorite cartoons weren't on?
You've posted nothing in this thread but doubt about the victim, and some sort of sublimation of your anger at yourself for being so very wrong.

And this is really common, this sense of denial "it cannot be that bad, people can't be that horrible." But unfortunately it is frequently that bad and some people are that horrible and when people question victims, even out of innocent motives, they actually allow all the bad stuff to continue.

I think accepting that we don´t know the circumstances when we don´t kow the circumstances it´s a pretty lucid thing to do.

Now, if you are as interested to look further in the article and once found out what the "victim" (that may be indeed a victim or maybe not) truly is saying that happened do something about it then great kudos to you.

It is just important to not condemn somebody immidiatly because the world is "so bad that he surely did it".

 

[Songbird]

I think accepting that we don´t know the circumstances when we don´t kow the circumstances it´s a pretty lucid thing to do.

Now, if you are as interested to look further in the article and once found out what the "victim" (that may be indeed a victim or maybe not) truly is saying that happened do something about it then great kudos to you.

It is just important to not condemn somebody immidiatly because the world is "so bad that he surely did it".

You may have missed the second article posted on this page, Me Myself. Lots more details in that one.

Edit: And Drolefille is right; in my experience denial is so tragically common even victims' own families don't believe it.

 

[fallingblood]

And this is really common, this sense of denial "it cannot be that bad, people can't be that horrible." But unfortunately it is frequently that bad and some people are that horrible and when people question victims, even out of innocent motives, they actually allow all the bad stuff to continue.

I agree with this. A problem I see though is that there are also a number of false accusations, which greatly take away from the those who need help. Like I said earlier, I did a study in my state (I have a degree in criminal justice), and found that a considerable number of claimed rape victims were not rape victims in the sense that one usually thinks of it (the results also had to do with how I was getting the information, and I know, and intended, for actual rape victims not to respond. My study was more on individuals who claim rape when it is actually statutory rape. I probably should have mentioned that before when I first brought this up).

Many of the people I surveyed claimed to have been raped, when it was actually statutory rape, that was consensual. Some claimed such for pride (I never did get this. But a number of them found it as a badge of honor or something. They were also high school students). That or it was consensual at the time, and then they later regretted it. There were a number of cases in which the parent reported rape, when it was consensual. And then there were forms of sexual harassment that were exaggerated as well. All of these, in my opinion, do a great deal of injustice to actual rape victims.

That is one reason I questioned it as well. I can see how innocently questioning could cause future harm. Especially when being raped is something that is sometimes really hard to report just because of the stigma, and the emotional/physical damage that is done.

 

[Father Heathen]

Manfred has defended child abuse, so I guess it's no surprise that he's also a rape apologist.

 

[ChristineES]

(Holy cow, this is the first time I have seen anyone argue with Sunstone, is the world coming to an end?)

 

[Me Myself]

You may have missed the second article posted on this page, Me Myself. Lots more details in that one.

Edit: And Drolefille is right; in my experience denial is so tragically common even victims' own families don't believe it.

Hum sounds like I did