Boys will be boys, so get used to it. . . Rape that is.

[Songbird]

Hum sounds like I did

No worries.

 

[Drolefille]

I agree with this. A problem I see though is that there are also a number of false accusations, which greatly take away from the those who need help. Like I said earlier, I did a study in my state (I have a degree in criminal justice), and found that a considerable number of claimed rape victims were not rape victims in the sense that one usually thinks of it (the results also had to do with how I was getting the information, and I know, and intended, for actual rape victims not to respond. My study was more on individuals who claim rape when it is actually statutory rape. I probably should have mentioned that before when I first brought this up).

Many of the people I surveyed claimed to have been raped, when it was actually statutory rape, that was consensual. Some claimed such for pride (I never did get this. But a number of them found it as a badge of honor or something. They were also high school students). That or it was consensual at the time, and then they later regretted it. There were a number of cases in which the parent reported rape, when it was consensual. And then there were forms of sexual harassment that were exaggerated as well. All of these, in my opinion, do a great deal of injustice to actual rape victims.

That is one reason I questioned it as well. I can see how innocently questioning could cause future harm. Especially when being raped is something that is sometimes really hard to report just because of the stigma, and the emotional/physical damage that is done.

While I agree that false accusations are harmful to actual victims, what were your statistics on false claims? And while you're saying that these were consensual statuatory cases, how old was the victim and how old was the accused? Many people will see a childhood sexual experience as consensual at the time and only later see that it was in fact manipulative and that the rapist was taking advantage of their youth and pressured them into things. That's why we have ages of consent.

So mostly I'm curious about your actual numbers and methodology because as you noted, your study was specifically looking at statutory cases which makes it not very representative of rape victims as a whole. And the methodology and numbers would also affect the applicability to a general discussion. If that makes sense.

 

[Alceste]

I agree with this. A problem I see though is that there are also a number of false accusations, which greatly take away from the those who need help. Like I said earlier, I did a study in my state (I have a degree in criminal justice), and found that a considerable number of claimed rape victims were not rape victims in the sense that one usually thinks of it (the results also had to do with how I was getting the information, and I know, and intended, for actual rape victims not to respond. My study was more on individuals who claim rape when it is actually statutory rape. I probably should have mentioned that before when I first brought this up).

Many of the people I surveyed claimed to have been raped, when it was actually statutory rape, that was consensual. Some claimed such for pride (I never did get this. But a number of them found it as a badge of honor or something. They were also high school students). That or it was consensual at the time, and then they later regretted it. There were a number of cases in which the parent reported rape, when it was consensual. And then there were forms of sexual harassment that were exaggerated as well. All of these, in my opinion, do a great deal of injustice to actual rape victims.

That is one reason I questioned it as well. I can see how innocently questioning could cause future harm. Especially when being raped is something that is sometimes really hard to report just because of the stigma, and the emotional/physical damage that is done.

Hmmm - that seems like a pretty dubious conclusion to me. All of my friends who claim to have been raped and who have described the circumstances were certainly raped: they said no to sex and were forced. Where were you drawing your boundary between "consensual" and "non-consensual" sex? For example, if you are not calling it "rape" when a boyfriend, husband or date coerces sex from a woman who is not in the mood, or when a consensual make-out session turns into non-consensual sex, then you are excluding the vast majority of sexual assaults from your study by design. Calling these "false" accusations would only add insult to injury, so I sincerely hope date rape was included in your "rape" category.

IMO, the occurrence of "false rape accusations" is very overblown and represents a tiny fraction of total accusations. Compared to the under-reporting of real sexual assaults for fear of being stigmatized or blamed, false accusations are a drop in the bucket.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Many of the people I surveyed claimed to have been raped, when it was actually statutory rape, that was consensual. Some claimed such for pride (I never did get this. But a number of them found it as a badge of honor or something. They were also high school students). That or it was consensual at the time, and then they later regretted it. There were a number of cases in which the parent reported rape, when it was consensual. And then there were forms of sexual harassment that were exaggerated as well. All of these, in my opinion, do a great deal of injustice to actual rape victims.

Maybe it's just the state I live in, but such people fall into their own category of sex offense here. It's still an area that needs to be fixed, but it still leaves a clear distinction between statutory rape and rape.

 

[Revoltingest]

When trying to balance the claim of the victim against the presumption of innocence of the accused til proven guilty, sides are taken & emotions run high.
People will infer extreme interpretations which aren't intended.
I recommend more accurate quoting, & less proffering of inference as fact.

 

[Alceste]

When trying to balance the claim of the victim against the presumption of innocence of the accused til proven guilty, sides are taken & emotions run high.
People will infer extreme interpretations which aren't intended.
I recommend more quoting & less proffering of inference as fact.

Good thing there were witnesses and physical evidence, and that he confessed and was convicted, then raped again and was convicted again. Takes all the ambiguity out of the discussion.

 

[Mathematician]

You know, having had experience in peer counseling after surviving a brutal sexual assault in my life, this scenario is more common than some here may think. Socially and legally, there is more for the victim to overcome than the perpetrator. The victim - woman OR man - is not just dismissed, but maligned in the court of public opinion.

Interesting to note that EVERY story that surfaces of a rape accusation usually ends up in a "lack of evidence" and the plaintiff assumed to be simply going after money....the Duke lacrosse team, Ben Rothlesberger, a Kennedy family member, etc....

Ever notice that NONE of them ends in a rape conviction? Doesn't that ever seem odd?

Once one personally goes through the legal process and the court of public opinion, the understanding of the Rape Culture that maesi speaks of becomes astonishingly and painfully accurate.

Er, the Lacrosse team controversy has been pretty much proven to be a a lie perpetuated by the "victim." She didn't have a consistent story and her own friends and colleagues said that she purposely lied.

False rape accusations are consistently brought to light because it's an easy way to ruin a man's life even if the allegations have no legal merit. Rape is hard to prosecute because of the nature of the crime, and it's not wrong to presume innocence. That's a principle inherit in our legal system that unfortunately police officers seem prone to forget.

I've already openly talked with people how I'm a victim of false rape accusation, and I know of at least two other active male members here who have also been falsely accused. I can tell you that almost everything a rape victim experiences, we experience too. Our communities turn against us; I got threatening phone calls until 3 in the morning; your own family members inquire if it "really" happened.

 

[Songbird]

I've already openly talked with people how I'm a victim of false rape accusation, and I know of at least two other active male members here who have also been falsely accused. I can tell you that almost everything a rape victim experiences, we experience too. Our communities turn against us; I got threatening phone calls until 3 in the morning; your own family members inquire if it "really" happened.

That's awful, Gene. Peace to you.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Gene, what are your thoughts on the story?

 

[Songbird]

One only needs to look at the sad state of affairs at Penn State and the sex abuse scandals involving priests in the Catholic Church to understand that this is a larger and more insidious issue than simply, "They're evil."

Makes you consider how a particular hierarchy ultimately exists only to protect itself.....think about it.....it's like the fox guarding the henhouse. The very idea of it is absurd. If the fox attacks the hen at night because she dared to go out of the henhouse, (1) the hen is blamed for putting herself in that situation in the first place, and (2) the fox is either presumed innocent because he is granted the position of guardian OR he is acquitted because you just can't blame him for acting on his instincts.

I say to hell with that construct. I'll teach the hens how to use a gun and to shoot at predators.

To paraphrase a certain lawyer friend, if you're wealthy, you basically have a get-off scot-free rape card. The accuser's motives always get questioned in the case of wealth, and well-paid lawyers tend to do a fantastic job of making the accuser look terrible.

 

[Revoltingest]

To paraphrase a certain lawyer friend, if you're wealthy, you basically have a get-off scot-free rape card. The accuser's motives always get questioned in the case of wealth, and well-paid lawyers tend to do a fantastic job of making the accuser look terrible.

This class based inadequacy of justice works in both directions.
False accusations happen. Denial of real assault happens to.
Even in the best of systems, it's gonna be messy.

Even the humorous title of the OP points to a leap to judgement. "Boys will be boys" suggests that the propensity of males to rape is
omnipresent & to be tolerated. Regarding the Duke case, should the alternative be that "Girls will be girls"....that females will make
up horrendous & devastating accusations upon whim? Dedicated & dispassionate inquiry into all legal complaints would be appropriate.

 

[Songbird]

This class based inadequacy of justice works in both directions.
False accusations happen. Denial of real assault happens to.
Even in the best of systems, it's gonna be messy.

Class-based inadequacy almost always punishes the lower classes for being lower classes. Simply being able to afford good lawyers and good PR is a start.

It reminds me of a quote from an unrelated article: "...if you have psychopathic tendencies and are born to a poor family, you're likely to go to prison. If you have psychopathic tendencies and are born to a rich family, you're likely to go to business school."

The 1% are the very best destroyers of wealth the world has ever seen | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian

 

[Revoltingest]

Class-based inadequacy almost always punishes the lower classes for being lower classes. Simply being able to afford good lawyers and good PR is a start.
It reminds me of a quote from an unrelated article: "...if you have psychopathic tendencies and are born to a poor family, you're likely to go to prison. If you have psychopathic tendencies and are born to a rich family, you're likely to go to business school."
The 1% are the very best destroyers of*wealth the world has ever seen | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian

The Duke case might be a reversal of that tendency. The falsely accused aren't compensated for their losses.
But in spite of all the inherent tendencies to injustice.......uh......er......I don't have anything useful to say.

 

[Songbird]

The Duke case might be a reversal of that tendency. The falsely accused aren't compensated for their losses.

That's true.

 

[Songbird]

But in spite of all the inherent tendencies to injustice.......uh......er......I don't have anything useful to say.

Me neither! Most of my "debate" involves few conclusions.

 

[Drolefille]

This class based inadequacy of justice works in both directions.
False accusations happen. Denial of real assault happens to.
Even in the best of systems, it's gonna be messy.

Even the humorous title of the OP points to a leap to judgement. "Boys will be boys" suggests that the propensity of males to rape is
omnipresent & to be tolerated. Regarding the Duke case, should the alternative be that "Girls will be girls"....that females will make
up horrendous & devastating accusations upon whim? Dedicated & dispassionate inquiry into all legal complaints would be appropriate.

I think the boys will be boys phrase plays off of an actual attitude in society. It's not the title that has a problem, it's the rape culture that bro-fives a guy for hitting that drunk chick last night. Very few people will say boys will be boys about (what they perceive as) actual rape, but it is far more culturally acceptable than your GWBG alternative.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think the boys will be boys phrase plays off of an actual attitude in society. It's not the title that has a problem, it's the rape culture that bro-fives a guy for hitting that drunk chick last night. Very few people will say boys will be boys about (what they perceive as) actual rape, but it is far more culturally acceptable than your GWBG alternative.

Let's decide that both alternatives are ill considered.

Me neither! Most of my "debate" involves few conclusions.

Tis OK with me. Conclusions aren't all they're cracked up to be anyway.
They often get in the way of understanding the larger picture....particularly if our conclusions don't fit perfectly.

 

[Drolefille]

Let's decide that both alternatives are ill considered.


Tis OK with me. Conclusions aren't all they're cracked up to be anyway.
They often get in the way of understanding the larger picture....particularly if our conclusions don't fit perfectly.

Eh, I don't agree with just saying "both bad" when one is part of the majority culture and the other isn't. One oppresses, one doesn't.

 

[Revoltingest]

Eh, I don't agree with just saying "both bad" when one is part of the majority culture and the other isn't. One oppresses, one doesn't.

I didn't say "just saying both bad".
What does that mean?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This class based inadequacy of justice works in both directions.
False accusations happen. Denial of real assault happens to.
Even in the best of systems, it's gonna be messy.

Even the humorous title of the OP points to a leap to judgement. "Boys will be boys" suggests that the propensity of males to rape is
omnipresent & to be tolerated. Regarding the Duke case, should the alternative be that "Girls will be girls"....that females will make
up horrendous & devastating accusations upon whim? Dedicated & dispassionate inquiry into all legal complaints would be appropriate.

That is quite often the case though. Far too often the victim is blamed, usually over claims of acting or dressing provocatively. If the notion of "boys will be boys" didn't exist in the realm of sexual assaults, then no one would blame the victim, as people would realize it is indeed the assailant that lacks impulse control. But instead society says it's ok to think the victim should not have been dressed in a certain way, should not have been acting a certain way, should not have been drunk, or whatever excuse people will use.