Brexit

[Flankerl]

I must admit, I never saw such a plaque. It's possibly because I live in a village and always have lived in villages and have never even been to cities like York or Leeds. I can't say I saw any development where I am, really. The EU sponsored educational and work programmes, but those were pretty middling. I grew up in a village of ~300 folks and our local town of ~20,000 folks, many unskilled workers who just float around both foreign and native, so that might add some perspective.

GB wants to be like the other Anglophone countries. I just can't grasp why this isn't possible.

Well they were also on motorways, schools, even electricity poles.

A ~300 people village not being a booming hub of employment is the same everywhere. The UK is not special in any of that.


The UK wants to be like other Anglophone countries?
What does that mean?
All other Anglophone countries seek closer cooperation with the EU.


The UKs problem is that you don't have proportional representation.
FPTP is completely undemocratic and funnily one of the reasons you wouldn't be allowed to rejoin the EU.

 

[LuisDantas]

You don't get much of a personal perspective from thousands of miles away. And it's hard to empathise from there, with the emotions of human beings who see their communities ignored by policy makers who are similarly distant, both geographically and socially. Reading worthy articles in The Guardian, perhaps over an oat-milk latte in a fashionable urban cafe, doesn't quite capture the experience of walking past yet another boarded up shop in your local High Street.

(I know that I said I was leaving this thread, but this required a response)

I am well aware of the challenges.

Ultimately, they do not seem to me to be all that different from those faced by people living in places as populous as Brazil - or for that matter China, India or even the USA.

So I take notice of your warnings, yet I insist on not being limited by them all the same.

If anything, by this point I must admit that (not without some pride) I consider myself better aware of the pros and cons of Brexit than apparently most Leavers ever were. Including, apparently, Jacob Rees-Mogg.

I am not the kind of person who feels ashamed of knowing what I am talking about. I do not intend to become that kind of person either.

 

[Rival]

Well they were also on motorways, schools, even electricity poles.

A ~300 people village not being a booming hub of employment is the same everywhere. The UK is not special in any of that.

I mean it probably colours my perspective, because all I recall is bad to nonexistent transport, no job opportunities in the local town, no community centres anywhere in the local town etc. It's a feeling of being stuck. You have to move. Part of this involves nothing being in the village. No bakeries, no butchers, no little shops, cafes, etc. Even the local post offices have gone.

I visited France recently and they still have village bakeries and cafes etc. I never see that here these days, and when they do open they're closed within 2 years, I can almost bet on it. This is more the fault of multinationals like Tesco and Amazon, which is its own problem. But these things accumulate and you realise something, whether local or broader, has to change.

I don't know what German villages are like but there's really no such thing as the quant English village any more. They've been gutted. Many living here see this as a problem of globalisation, where there are fewer to no local businesses and more international ones. Whether this is true or not, it influenced their vote.

Often, the blame was laid at the feet of globalization. For example, one woman in Newcastle highlighted how globalization means “smaller businesses … go out of business because [of] competition from … worldwide companies.” Participants also highlighted how these changes negatively impact young people’s job prospects, because with the closure of shops, there are fewer employment opportunities.

In U.S. and UK, Globalization Leaves Some Feeling ‘Left Behind’ or ‘Swept Up’ | Pew Research Center

The UK wants to be like other Anglophone countries?
What does that mean?
All other Anglophone countries seek closer cooperation with the EU.

Brexit voters saw themselves as voting for the UK to retake its place as a global power the likes of the US. We wonder why we 'need' a union at all. We wonder what happened to our influence. Again, the EU is seen as a reason to blame. We never saw ourselves as being like Greece or Portugal. We saw ourselves having more in common with the Anglophone countries in culture and political outlook. We don't see the US a foreign as we see continental Europe, for example.

The UKs problem is that you don't have proportional representation.
FPTP is completely undemocratic and funnily one of the reasons you wouldn't be allowed to rejoin the EU.

Yes, we need a better system.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The problem is a bit more nuanced than this.

Globalisation might be inevitable on our current trajectory, but the issue the voters are seeing is that it's not benefitting us. As Stevicus said, my region is not seeing any benefit of globalisation and only seems to becoming poorer, while the capital grows richer. We wouldn't be as opposed to it if it included us. The problem is that the goods based economy has ceased, that is, in many places in England, the US etc. industry has been lost, jobs outsourced, and a service economy taken over. The problem is that this service economy never reached us, so we have nothing to replace the loss of industry, goods making etc., so we are not benefitting in any way from this new economic model either locally or internationally. Globalisation may be helping the cities, but that has not reached beyond them. My local college recently shut down, and now they're threatening the hospital. This simply isn't sustainable. We want to see the benefits of globalisation but all we see is more suffering.

But how did you think Brexit would help all this?

I mean, either way, you've got globalism creating its own winners and losers, and you've got government that's putting the interests of the city ahead of rural areas, but with Brexit, suddenly the UK is navigating all that from a position of weakness, so there's likely going to be less to go around, including to you and your area.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I
Brexit voters saw themselves as voting for the UK to retake its place as a global power the likes of the US.

Why do I hear the faint echo of "Make America Great Again"?

 

[Rival]

But how did you think Brexit would help all this?

I mean, either way, you've got globalism creating its own winners and losers, and you've got government that's putting the interests of the city ahead of rural areas, but with Brexit, suddenly the UK is navigating all that from a position of weakness, so there's likely going to be less to go around, including to you and your area.

We, perhaps naively, assumed the money that was fed into the EU would be saved to be invested nationally. Logically, it makes sense. We saw money being taken from us in taxes, being sent to the EU and nothing changing in our own local areas except becoming worse. We wanted to know where our money was going and why we weren't seeing any of it being used locally. We saw lots of it being used in London, and saw Westminster sending money to the EU and said 'sod that'.

 

[Rival]

Why do I hear the faint echo of "Make America Great Again"?

Because that's what it is, I guess, in a roundabout way. Although here, at least from my POV locally, it's more a case of 'make there be local jobs that pay a good wage' again. That's really all this comes down to from where I'm standing.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Because that's what it is, I guess, in a roundabout way. Although here, at least from my POV locally, it's more a case of 'make there be local jobs that pay a good wage' again. That's really all this comes down to from where I'm standing.

Or, to quote Tip O'Neill (or Byron Price): "all politics is local."

 

[Rival]

I've been quoting this article a lot but it is a very good read that I keep nodding to,

In U.S. and UK, Globalization Leaves Some Feeling ‘Left Behind’ or ‘Swept Up’ | Pew Research Center

 

[England my lionheart]

People totally misunderstand Brexit,it wasn’t about the Bus or the millions saved on the NHS,many people had asked for a referendum for years.

Ted Heath took us in without even asking and when it was a trading block it wasn’t a bad idea but we had a referendum to leave or stay in what was then the EEC,stay in won by a massive majority but the EEC became EU without any votes on decisions made on treaties,again many people asked for a referendum but were basically refused.

Then the EU fancied itself as a federal state and started making stupid mistakes like the Euro and a central bank that took no prisoners,I’m not sure Greece will ever recover then the most stupid idea of “free movement”,duh,an imbecile idea,poor people from all over Europe would head where?,duh easy answer,they go where anyone is better off than themselves,calamity ensued.

So instead of being clever and investing in the poorer countries they introduce very cheap labour,when you could get 5 European Bricklayers for the price of 1 British Bricklayer,it became the land of milk and honey for the poor of Europe and who could blame them,meanwhile the poor here got even worse off because the job market was saturated with cheap labour,the man in the street was never better of in the EU,now the more wealthy it was cool,a second home in the sun and cheap labour,halcyon days for them.

Then came the master stroke of duh!,Merkel let’s one million complete unknowns into Europe,ask how that’s going.

The EU is just a name without any substance for most of the 27,the reality is 3 maybe 4 countries hold the stage and the rest hope for scraps,such a shame for what could have been workable,5 presidents and it still can’t do the right thing,Putin smirks knowingly.

 

[Flankerl]

Ah the local Nigel

Ted Heath took us in without even asking and when it was a trading block it wasn’t a bad idea but we had a referendum to leave or stay in what was then the EEC,stay in won by a massive majority but the EEC became EU without any votes on decisions made on treaties,again many people asked for a referendum but were basically refused.

That's literally what your elections were about.
You elect Government, that Government looks after your interests in the EU.

Though you'll never get that.

Then the EU fancied itself as a federal state and started making stupid mistakes like the Euro and a central bank that took no prisoners,I’m not sure Greece will ever recover then the most stupid idea of “free movement”,duh,an imbecile idea,poor people from all over Europe would head where?,duh easy answer,they go where anyone is better off than themselves,calamity ensued.

So instead of being clever and investing in the poorer countries they introduce very cheap labour,when you could get 5 European Bricklayers for the price of 1 British Bricklayer,it became the land of milk and honey for the poor of Europe and who could blame them,meanwhile the poor here got even worse off because the job market was saturated with cheap labour,the man in the street was never better of in the EU,now the more wealthy it was cool,a second home in the sun and cheap labour,halcyon days for them.

The EU is not "a federal state".

Freedom of movement wasn't a problem anywhere else.
Wanna know why? Because the EU gave countries the choice to postpone it from new members for some time.
Pretty much everyone chose to do that, well except the Island people...

So whose fault was it? Yours.

And Greece was always given the choice to leave the Euro and default.
Except they didn't want that as it would've ruined the country even more.

Then came the master stroke of duh!,Merkel let’s one million complete unknowns into Europe,ask how that’s going.

Well how is it going?
No cities on fire. Trash is collected regularly.

Also how did that impact you? You never let them into your country anyway.

The EU is just a name without any substance for most of the 27,the reality is 3 maybe 4 countries hold the stage and the rest hope for scraps,such a shame for what could have been workable,5 presidents and it still can’t do the right thing,Putin smirks knowingly.

Ah yes anti-Russia UK.
Well except for that KGB Agent Johnson met after a NATO briefing.
And of course the Red Square in London.
And all the money that poured out of Russia into the Tory Party.

Nothing to see there.
All perfectly normal!

Oh look it's the Lord of Siberia, son of a KGB Agent.
Perfectly fine!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Brexit voters saw themselves as voting for the UK to retake its place as a global power the likes of the US. We wonder why we 'need' a union at all. We wonder what happened to our influence. Again, the EU is seen as a reason to blame.

I think you've got to go back nearly a century to the Statute of Westminster (or even early to the circumstances leading to the Statute of Westminster) to find what happened to British influence.

We never saw ourselves as being like Greece or Portugal. We saw ourselves having more in common with the Anglophone countries in culture and political outlook. We don't see the US a foreign as we see continental Europe, for example.

But you are like Greece and Portugal: once the metropole of a colonial empire, but now just another country, as the Sex Pistols put it.

 

[Rival]

I think you've got to go back nearly a century to the Statute of Westminster (or even early to the circumstances leading to the Statute of Westminster) to find what happened to British influence.


But you are like Greece and Portugal: once the metropole of a colonial empire, but now just another country, as the Sex Pistols put it.

We need to regain a sense of identity. This is an England problem. The Celtic countries have strong identities, but we feel subsumed into a void. There are no local traditions or dialects anymore (not like there used to be) and we feel that loss. Going down south may as well be another country (I never saw a Waitrose until I was in London; I thought it was an online shop, for example; I never saw Pret til I was in the south; I thought it was French etc.) There's nothing here. We have a strong sense of English identity and no foundation on which to rest it. The feeling is that we are losing something and we want that sense of local or national identity back. So much as waving an English flag can see one branded a racist. We feel at a loss.

 

[LuisDantas]

Influence comes from the ability to satisfy interests.

Which is to say, to be perceived as a valuable partner.

Expectations of apparently popular ideologies notwithstanding, that is only hindered by isolationist and nationalistic drives.

 

[Rival]

Influence comes from the ability to satisfy interests.

Which is to say, to be perceived as a valuable partner.

Expectations of apparently popular ideologies notwithstanding, that is only hindered by isolationist and nationalistic drives.

We didn't want to be either of those, though. We wanted to form our own trade deals with India, Japan, Australia, South Africa etc. Nobody, as far as I know, was talking about isolationism; if anything, there was a desire to expand our trade where we'd felt hemmed in by EU protectionist policies. Whatever you think about that isn't pertinent here; but certainly I don't recall anyone talking about isolationism or nationalistic policies to the exclusion of other countries. We wanted to work with the Commonwealth, Anglophone regions, the Continent and Asia, and made efforts to do as much

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There seems to be a longing to get back to those (mythical) good old days wherein the expropriated and otherwise exploited were pretty much kept outside the borders. We want the Walmarts, not the Bangladeshis.

 

[LuisDantas]

We didn't want to be either of those, though. We wanted to form our own trade deals with India, Japan, Australia, South Africa etc.

And you can and you have been doing just that.

From a position of self-inflicted fragility, now that you have rid yourselves of the leverage that came with EU membership.

Not seeing the advantage there.

Nobody, as far as I know, was talking about isolationism; if anything, there was a desire to expand our trade where we'd felt hemmed in by EU protectionist policies. Whatever you think about that isn't pertinent here;

Apparently. Which is why I won't waste my time if I can help it.

but certainly I don't recall anyone talking about isolationism or nationalistic policies to the exclusion of other countries. We wanted to work with the Commonwealth, Anglophone regions, the Continent and Asia, and made efforts to do as much

I too want to be favored by Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Alas, I have to earn that favour if I hope to actually obtain it.

 

[Rival]

We want the Walmarts, not the Bangladeshis.

Not true though, which is what I've been saying. We don't want those kinds of multinationals that are putting small businesses out of business, that's exactly what we're arguing against. We want small businesses and family owned shops to be able to thrive, whether foreign or native, that's the whole point, really.

 

[Rival]

And you can and you have been doing just that.

From a position of self-inflicted fragility, now that you have rid yourselves of the leverage that came with EU membership.

Not seeing the advantage there.




Apparently. Which is why I won't waste my time if I can help it.



I too want to be favored by Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Alas, I have to earn that favour if I hope to actually obtain it.

There's a disconnect between how those inside the UK see it and how those outside the UK see it.

Those inside are going 'Uh, the US doesn't need leverage, why do we? We're the UK for crying out loud.'

And those outside seem to be saying, 'You're basically a nobody island.'

We have one of the largest economies in Europe, we're hardly nobody. So we do just find this a bit baffling.

 

[England my lionheart]

Olaf Sholtz,”your so naughty Vladimir,is it ok to get a good rate on gas?”,ask Sweden how the one million unidentified immigrants are going :

Failed integration of immigrants fueling gang violence and crime, Swedish PM says

Oh thanks so much mrs Mopp for your stupid idea,What a crock of bull**** the EU is,mistakes were made for them to trip over and Ukraine has highlighted it so much,”yay Ukraine has been fastracked into the EU”,Macron “it could take 6 to 7 years”,not even funny and now Macron,who to be fair had some interesting ideas on unity of Europe outside of the EU,hispresidency is over and has no working majority at home.

How sad is this:

Hamburg senator warns of hot water rationing if gas shortage becomes acute

nobody wants to see this but your EU has a new Daddy.