Brexit

[Jayhawker Soule]

We want small businesses and family owned shops to be able to thrive, whether foreign or native, that's the whole point, really.

Perfect! Facebook has a number of spinning wheels for sale. Perhaps some were produced in Northern England.

A true story. I worked as a proud unionist in a steel plant in the early 70's, a time when the "where's Joe" campaign was all the rage. Joe, you see, was that iconic steelworker who was tossed out of work because by foreign steel. It was a tidy little 'patriotic' campaign focused on demonizing the other. Meanwhile, those few steel plants that were productive were channelling their profits into petrochemical and importing Japanese steel when needing to update and/or expand their facilities - steel that was literally shipped in in the dead of night.​

Sorry, just day-dreaming. Surely such scenarios have little to do with the United Kingdom.

 

[Rival]

Perfect! Facebook has a number of spinning wheels for sale. Perhaps some were produced in Northern England.

A true story. I worked as a proud unionist in a steel plant in the early 70's, a time when the "where's Joe" campaign was all the rage. Joe, you see, was that iconic steelworker who was tossed out of work because by foreign steel. It was a tidy little 'patriotic' campaign focused on demonizing the other. Meanwhile, those few steel plants that were productive were channelling their profits into petrochemical and importing Japanese steel when needing to update and/or expand their facilities - steel that was literally shipped in in the dead of night.​

Sorry, just day-dreaming. Surely such scenarios have little to do with the United Kingdom.

They have.

I think folks missed the bit where I repeatedly said 'I also blame Westminster', unless some foreigners are unaware that Westminster, Whitehall and 'London' refer to the government.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

They have.

I think folks missed the bit where I repeatedly said 'I also blame Westminster' unless some foreigners are unaware that Westminster, Whitehall and 'London' refer to the government.

Fair enough. May I ask which good old days you wish to resuscitate?

 

[Rival]

Fair enough. May I ask which good old days you wish to resuscitate?

I don't. I was being a bit tongue in cheek with my other post. I just want to see a fairer, less centralised England, an independent Scotland (if it wants it) and a more socialistic economy (i.e., I don't support Thatcherite/Reaganite economic policy).

 

[Stevicus]

Not really seeing what the link would be, tbh.

You can't see how people living in economically depressed areas would develop a negative attitude towards their government and tend to not believe what their government says is good or bad for a country?

 

[LuisDantas]

You can't see how people living in economically depressed areas would develop a negative attitude towards their government and tend to not believe what their government says is good or bad for a country?

In a way that goes directly against their personal interests?

No, I do not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't. I was being a bit tongue in cheek with my other post. I just want to see a fairer, less centralised England, an independent Scotland (if it wants it) and a more socialistic economy (i.e., I don't support Thatcherite/Reaganite economic policy).

If an independent Scotland and unified Ireland happens during my life I think I can die happy about something knowing my ancestral homelands are free, united and the centuries of wars and rebellions weren't for nothing.

 

[Stevicus]

In a way that goes directly against their personal interests?

No, I do not.

From the point of view of the working classes, they've been living under governments which have been working against their personal interests. So, if the same people who have been working against their interests for the past 30-40 years try to discourage them from supporting something and say "this goes directly against your personal interests," why should they believe them?

How many times do you expect people to believe the same lies over and over? You really can't see it? It's really that much of a mystery to you?

 

[Rival]

If an independent Scotland and unified Ireland happens during my life I think I can die happy about something knowing my ancestral homelands are free, united and the centuries of wars and rebellions weren't for nothing.

I would love to see a united Ireland.

 

[LuisDantas]

From the point of view of the working classes, they've been living under governments which have been working against their personal interests. So, if the same people who have been working against their interests for the past 30-40 years try to discourage them from supporting something and say "this goes directly against your personal interests," why should they believe them?

How many times do you expect people to believe the same lies over and over? You really can't see it? It's really that much of a mystery to you?

I think I was clear enough.

Frankly, I have to ask myself at this point if the British like to be manipulated to hurt their own well-being.

It is not that hard to seek information and learn better.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I would love to see a united Ireland.

I'm hoping Sinn Fein having such a tremendous victory in Northern Ireland is a sign of reunification to happen. I'll probably even shed tears of joy for my great grandparents who came here when Ireland was still part of the UK.

 

[Rival]

I think I was clear enough.

Frankly, I have to ask myself at this point if the British like to be manipulated to hurt their own well-being.

It is not that hard to seek information and learn better.

If that information conflicts with what one sees in one's locale, one's locale will be the deciding factor, and this is what we have seen. It's easy to look at stats and figures, but if these don't match the reality of one's back yard nobody will care for them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If that information conflicts with what one sees in one's locale, one's locale will be the deciding factor, and this is what we have seen. It's easy to look at stats and figures, but if these don't match the reality of one's back yard nobody will care for them.

Sounds like the US economy when the numbers are going in the right direction, but at the same time people have less disposable income, aren't making as much and the middle class is dwindling.

 

[Rival]

I'm hoping Sinn Fein having such a tremendous victory in Northern Ireland is a sign of reunification to happen. I'll probably even shed tears of joy for my great grandparents who came here when Ireland was still part of the UK.

Bring it on. I would love to see these countries have independence, including Wales if it's economically viable, and to keep its language alive, as well as Gaelic and Irish. Wouldn't that be awesome? Roll on Mediaeval kingdoms

 

[Stevicus]

I think I was clear enough.

Frankly, I have to ask myself at this point if the British like to be manipulated to hurt their own well-being.

It is not that hard to seek information and learn better.

Well, you said that you didn't see the connection, so I was trying to explain it. Wasn't I clear enough?

What do you see as hurting their own well-being? More to the point, what do you see as helping their well-being?

You seem to be implying that being part of the EU was helpful to their well-being, but if that's the case, then the ruling class would have been able to show it and demonstrate that there has been a tangible benefit. In other words, there would not be the kind of economically-depressed areas as described by the OP (and which also exist in the US for similar reasons). If the wealthy classes wanted the working classes to support their agenda, then they should have "showed them the money," as I noted upthread. They didn't do that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Bring it on. I would love to see these countries have independence, including Wales if it's economically viable, and to keep its language alive, as well as Gaelic and Irish. Wouldn't that be awesome? Roll on Mediaeval kingdoms

That would be fantastic.

 

[LuisDantas]

If that information conflicts with what one sees in one's locale, one's locale will be the deciding factor, and this is what we have seen. It's easy to look at stats and figures, but if these don't match the reality of one's back yard nobody will care for them.

... how is what you are saying different - if at all - from "I will eat whatever Nigel Farage and the like tell me, no matter how divorced from truth"?

 

[Rival]

... how is what you are saying different - if at all - from "I will eat whatever Nigel Farage and the like tell me, no matter how divorced from truth"?

Because we're not listening to them, either.

I'm not sure how else I can get this across, to be honest.

We look around us, see poverty, joblessness and suffering, and vote against what we believe causes it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, you said that you didn't see the connection, so I was trying to explain it. Wasn't I clear enough?

I hope not. Because the implication would be that you are always giving the current government the power to decide how you should vote.

What do you see as hurting their own well-being? More to the point, what do you see as helping their well-being?

You seem to be implying that being part of the EU was helpful to their well-being, but if that's the case, then the ruling class would have been able to show it and demonstrate that there has been a tangible benefit. In other words, there would not be the kind of economically-depressed areas as described by the OP (and which also exist in the US for similar reasons). If the wealthy classes wanted the working classes to support their agenda, then they should have "showed them the money," as I noted upthread. They didn't do that.

Politicians don't think long term. They can't afford to. It is for voters to demand that they act in a responsible way.

Can it be that the British truly do not care about their present and future enough to even try to learn about their own politics?

Scary thought.

 

[LuisDantas]

Because we're not listening to them, either.

I'm not sure how else I can get this across, to be honest.

We look around us, see poverty, joblessness and suffering, and vote against what we believe causes it.

I give up.