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By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That's OK, because without faith fallible humans, like you, won't end up deciding any of the many gods exist. That's because faith is unreliable, and reasoning is reliable.

This can lead to Christians behaving badly because they have a Golden Ticket for Heaven and don't have to reflect on their actions and conserquences. Christians seem to think they alone are saved, but the Bible says Jesus was executed and sacrificed for the sins of mankind, so it looks as though we are all covered and going to heaven, even atheists.

I like how you are the reasoning for all humans for all cases, but that is not problematic, when it is you. It is only the case for everybody else. Can you say special pleading?
You are the we for all humans as you are the objective, rational standard for all humans. Now that is no different that all other variants of that, yet it is because you are special.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Let me explain Rom 14 in another translation:

14 I know and am convinced on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong.

If we change "food" to "dancing" we can see that there are some things that can go either way and then ones understanding and viewpoint can change.
It refers to food, not dancing, so it is irrelevant. But what you are saying is that Chriztians can be wrong, including you. Since you rely on faith and not reason what chance is there that you aren't making a list of errors? The massive diversity of Christian beliefs inform us that nerly all Christians are getting something wrong. The dilemma is that none of we observers can be sure any Christian claim of truth is correct. Look at the variety of beliefs and interpretation on this thread, quite a lot of disagreement.
8 If we live, it’s to honor the Lord. And if we die, it’s to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

So, if for that person they are doing it because they believe it is honoring God, they do it for Him and they do it to honor Him. It isn't a big deal to God unless it expressly violates God's love command.
Wouldn't honoring God's love command mean the duty is to your fellow humans and the planet? I doubt God is so insecure that he needs worship and praise.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Well, I DO believe that we have to accept His sacrifice.
Why would a condition be necessary? Wouldn't that be the sort of thing a religion demands from people so it can raise money and coerce believers? The Bible says Jesus died to atone for the sins of mankind, and that is a definitive sentence.
But I also think that all of us are in for some surprises.
You've said this before, so you seem to be having doubts or concerns? Feel free to share.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Why would a condition be necessary? Wouldn't that be the sort of thing a religion demands from people so it can raise money and coerce believers? The Bible says Jesus died to atone for the sins of mankind, and that is a definitive sentence.

You've said this before, so you seem to be having doubts or concerns? Feel free to share.
I have no doubts or concerns. It's simply a statement that I believe. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

By the way, here's a scripture about accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as reality. so it's not simply a "religion demanding from people so it can raise money and coerce believers" as you claim :

Romans 10:9-10—“if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”
 
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F1fan

Veteran Member
I like how you are the reasoning for all humans for all cases, but that is not problematic, when it is you. It is only the case for everybody else. Can you say special pleading?
No, just stating what works and what doesn't. If you disagree with anything I stated feel free to point it out, offer counter examples, and then a coherent argument. I don't think you can as what anyone can observe is that faith is unreliable and reason is a tool that aids fallible humans in making sound conclusions.
You are the we for all humans as you are the objective, rational standard for all humans. Now that is no different that all other variants of that, yet it is because you are special.
You seem to think that I can't make observatives and assessments that apply to humanity. Would you push back if I said we observe internal combustion engines running on gasoline and not water? I say "we" when there is no counter cases to what anyone sees or comments on. Is there any case you have ever enountered where religious faith is as reliable as critical thinking as a tool?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I have no doubts or concerns. It's simply a statement that I believe. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?
Not concerned? So your statement that we are in for some surprises it's a good thing, like all you can eat ice cream in heaven? I'll vote for that. After all, why would a loving God hurt people?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No, just stating what works and what doesn't. If you disagree with anything I stated feel free to point it out, offer counter examples, and then a coherent argument. I don't think you can as what anyone can observe is that faith is unreliable and reason is a tool that aids fallible humans in making sound conclusions.

You seem to think that I can't make observatives and assessments that apply to humanity. Would you push back if I said we observe internal combustion engines running on gasoline and not water? I say "we" when there is no counter cases to what anyone sees or comments on. Is there any case you have ever enountered where religious faith is as reliable as critical thinking as a tool?

You don't understand that all humans are not exactly the same. Your trick is that you manage your life with your value system, but you can't ground that with reason alone, but I can still act differently.
In the end we end in the is-ought problem. But you can't solve ought with reason objective, because it is subjective.

So if something works for you, notice something always works in regards to somebody, your claim is that you with reason can show it MUST work the same for everybody else.
You can't because it is subjective in some cases, but your hidden assumption is that everything works objectively in the end. You do that when you in effect claim your reason is objective in all cases, because it is so in only some cases.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Not concerned? So your statement that we are in for some surprises it's a good thing, like all you can eat ice cream in heaven? I'll vote for that. After all, why would a loving God hurt people?
Your words, not mine, and not God's either for that matter.

You know what I do every day (which is why I am not particularly concerned)? I try to love God and love my neighbor as myself. Governing myself is a full time job, and then some. I treat other people the way I want to be treated. Period.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
here's a scripture about accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as reality. so it's not simply a "religion demanding from people so it can raise money and coerce believers" as you claim : Romans 10:9-10—“if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”
How does that scripture rebut the claim that the religion exists to "raise money and coerce believers," what is sometimes called a self-licking ice cream cone?
You know what I do every day (which is why I am not particularly concerned)? I try to love God and love my neighbor as myself.
Hard questions: Specifically, how does that manifest? What do you have to do to love God, and how much time does that take? Regarding loving neighbors, what counts as a neighbor, and once again, what is the commitment in time and other resources to such people? How do you think that differs from the behavior of humanists, for example?

My purpose isn't to embarrass you, but to show what such words actually mean to the believer. You've seen the claim that religion doesn't actually make people better people, so I'm asking how do those words affect one's choices so that they differ from somebody who merely believes in the Golden Rule without gods or a religion.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
How does that scripture rebut the claim that the religion exists to "raise money and coerce believers," what is sometimes called a self-licking ice cream cone?

Hard questions: Specifically, how does that manifest? What do you have to do to love God, and how much time does that take? Regarding loving neighbors, what counts as a neighbor, and once again, what is the commitment in time and other resources to such people? How do you think that differs from the behavior of humanists, for example?

My purpose isn't to embarrass you, but to show what such words actually mean to the believer. You've seen the claim that religion doesn't actually make people better people, so I'm asking how do those words affect one's choices so that they differ from somebody who merely believes in the Golden Rule without gods or a religion.
You are totally missing my point, which is that I have my hands full with my own self, and treating others the way I want to be treated. I hope others have the same level of joy that I have, but I don't force that or myself on others because I wouldn't want them to force their beliefs about joy or themselves on me.

You're not embarrassing me at all, by the way. You do you, and I mean that sincerely.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I have no doubts or concerns. It's simply a statement that I believe. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?
I disagree that we will be surprised after we die because the facts suggest that our consciousness ceases at death. There is no more capacity for "surprise". So your statement is odd, and you offer no explanation for why you believe it. Maybe you don't know why and it's just an artifact of social conditioning.
By the way, here's a scripture about accepting the sacrifice of Jesus as reality. so it's not simply a "religion demanding from people so it can raise money and coerce believers" as you claim :

Romans 10:9-10—“if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.”
Yeah, paul had his own ideas about how truth is supposed to be. Reality? Not in any way. His opinion of non-factual, 1st century religious lore? Yes.

The thing is churches have for thousands of years exploited the fear and anxiety of believers to support their business model. Jesus taught about congregations being the collection of people, and I find the massive greed and fraud of churches over the millennia to be ironically fraudulent and counter to the teachings. Too bad the Bible is so inconsitent and vague.

Christianity: a set of religious sects where anything goes. IF you're a liberal you have Universalists. If you're a moderate you have presbytarian and Methodists. If you are a conservative you have Bapist. If you are an extremist you have evangelical options. All saved by the sacrifice of Jesus, and none share moral attitudes.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I disagree that we will be surprised after we die because the facts suggest that our consciousness ceases at death. There is no more capacity for "surprise". So your statement is odd, and you offer no explanation for why you believe it. Maybe you don't know why and it's just an artifact of social conditioning.

Yeah, paul had his own ideas about how truth is supposed to be. Reality? Not in any way. His opinion of non-factual, 1st century religious lore? Yes.

The thing is churches have for thousands of years exploited the fear and anxiety of believers to support their business model. Jesus taught about congregations being the collection of people, and I find the massive greed and fraud of churches over the millennia to be ironically fraudulent and counter to the teachings. Too bad the Bible is so inconsitent and vague.

Christianity: a set of religious sects where anything goes. IF you're a liberal you have Universalists. If you're a moderate you have presbytarian and Methodists. If you are a conservative you have Bapist. If you are an extremist you have evangelical options. All saved by the sacrifice of Jesus, and none share moral attitudes.
I don't find the bible to be particularly inconsistent or vague. I also don't find my statement to be odd, for that matter. It's not simply an artifact of social conditioning or whatever you call it.

Like I said, believe whatever you want to and I'll do the same. Thanks ever so.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
What is the false gospel of grace?
As clarified in Mt 13:41, it would be the "message" that leads one to "commit lawlessness", such as the gospel of grace/cross, whereas Paul has nailed the law to the cross, and his followers has made an attempt to make it "obsolete".
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
That is the nature of being moral and open minded. And it is about freedom and individual's pursuit of happiness. Your personal beliefs might not like what others prefer, but that is the beauty of liberty, we get to disagree and others mind their own business. The problem for religious extremists is there are many of them who disagree. Are you right, or some other Christian extremist, or Muslim extremists? In any event first world nations allow individuals freedom from the religion of others.
I think the disagreement is one of a more basic tenant of reality versus some false narrative of a woman being a state of mind versus a physical construct. I mean, you can say it is all right to cut of the parts of children to meet your criteria of that being within your construct of "happiness", but in the long run, the best one can hope for is that someone chops off your body parts to fit your pursuit of happiness, and then you come to the realization, that you were living in lol lol land. The Law, whether you except it or not, is that as you do to others, so shall be done to you. Your idea of being moral, is subjective to your apparent manipulated mind, and is not a perspective of having an open mind, for this level of weirdness, is a relatively newly constructed ideology, which probably comes from the increasing level of demon spirits in the air, or in physical terms, the results of a mind warping Progressive liberal education. You can mind your own business, but please stay away from children. When the sky falls, do to with your liberal free pursuit of sexual gratification, and wokeness, then you are probably not the only one affected. (Rev 16:13-21).

ex·trem·ist
a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action:
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You're intolerant of trans people, you insist that you are correct dogmatically, and you use bad sources for your claims, yet you think any of this applies to anyone but you?
Apart from watching You Tube, I am not familiar with any "trans people". I am only "intolerant" of idiots, which seem to take up a lot of space everywhere. The Green people should probably list idiots along with cow farts as a cause for the increase of CO2 levels. As for "trans people", they are apparently killing themselves off, whether before or after they mutilate themselves. This is where the premise of Darwin's survival of the fittest comes into play. While their gender dysphoria may be caused by hormones in the food, or simply poor diet, along with a progressive educational system, their wailing at the moon will probably not help their situation. Trans people can do as they will within confines of their own space, but when they pursue children's minds, I think they shouldn't be surprised when they get feedback.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Just asking, do you say you're a Christian?
Christians, are just a many factioned sect born of "Babylon the Great". (Rev 17:5) Their members, carry the mark of the "beast with two horns like a lamb", and are looking at drinking from the "cup of His wrath" (Rev 14:10).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
FOX is poor quality media and not a reputable source. Note that they are in the middle of lawsuits for defamation, and that means fraud that you are siding with.
Since I watched Fauci being interrogated in Congress, I therefore watched him blatantly lie to Congress. I think his most common response was "I don't remember", to the tune of around 180 times. The man has a mind of a steel trap, which unfortunately got rusted shut. "Defamation" is not the same as fraud. "Defamation" as in the defamation of the student by CNN is not considered fraud, and that settlement was sealed. The problem with Fox is that the judge thought they were withholding evidence. I guess they, as the defendent, stumbled over the 5th ammendment.
 
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