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By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Dude! That is exactly what you were doing.

You are objecting to a topic that you do not understand. That is shown by your poor argument. Transexualism is not based upon what a person thinks.
It defined transsexualism as " [a] desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with Transsexual - Wikipedia

It is called gender dysphoria, and is a mental problem.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That's OK, because without faith fallible humans, like you, won't end up deciding any of the many gods exist. That's because faith is unreliable, and reasoning is reliable.

I found it quite reliable. :) Thanks for asking.
This can lead to Christians behaving badly because they have a Golden Ticket for Heaven and don't have to reflect on their actions and conserquences. Christians seem to think they alone are saved, but the Bible says Jesus was executed and sacrificed for the sins of mankind, so it looks as though we are all covered and going to heaven, even atheists.

ROFL... you don't need God for a ticket to behaving badly - or forgiveness either... you and I do just fine in and of ourselves

And it isn't sin or the lack thereof that saves either as neither are the good works or a good moral behavior either, IMU.

BUT YOU ARE RIGHT! Jesus was executed and sacrificed for the sins of mankind! It isn't the "sins" that condemn us but rather the one sin as Jesus outlined in John 16:8-11 and John 3:16-17. :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yeah, I get it. You have your view of God's love. But other Christians do that differently. To your support is that it make sense to you and theirs that it makes sense to them.

Yes... there are different perspectives, as I mentioned before. And, as I mentioned in Romans 14, it makes sense to each individual as they walk out their individual faith journey. It is when it is obvious "darkness" or "completely against what is written" that one can figure out when it isn't right.

Like "YOU ARE GOING TO HELL!", which I dislike so immensely, when God is the judge and not a man or a woman. At that point I think it is pretty clear who would be right

Thanks for the input!
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I think the disagreement is one of a more basic tenant of reality versus some false narrative of a woman being a state of mind versus a physical construct.
Even biology that has the binary male/female has defects and inconsistencies. It's not common, but it is reality. American Christians have a history of thinking in black and white absolutes, and these don't work with what we observe of nature. It's not just biology that has exceptions, but human psychology is not absolute. Many conservatives Christians show contempt for sciences and expecially psychology. The sciences advance as more evidence and data is collected, and how a small portion of humans experience themselves does not fit their biology. Is it right or wrong? Science isn't to judge. The social sciences examine behaviors and classify attitudes and behaviors that cause harm in categories that are negative. Being gay used to be thought of as a form of mental illness but as science has examined gay people that is no longer the case. Trans people seem to be in a similar category where no one is harmed. The only harm that is being observed these days is conservative politics that vilify these people and those who care for them. The motivation for conservative politics is more black and white Christian thinking.
I mean, you can say it is all right to cut of the parts of children to meet your criteria of that being within your construct of "happiness", but in the long run, the best one can hope for is that someone chops off your body parts to fit your pursuit of happiness, and then you come to the realization, that you were living in lol lol land. The Law, whether you except it or not, is that as you do to others, so shall be done to you. Your idea of being moral, is subjective to your apparent manipulated mind, and is not a perspective of having an open mind, for this level of weirdness, is a relatively newly constructed ideology, which probably comes from the increasing level of demon spirits in the air, or in physical terms, the results of a mind warping Progressive liberal education. You can mind your own business, but please stay away from children. When the sky falls, do to with your liberal free pursuit of sexual gratification, and wokeness, then you are probably not the only one affected. (Rev 16:13-21).
Conservatives are using law to harm classes of citizens, whether climinalizing trans people or restricting reproductive care.

You are free to your religious viewpoint. What you write here is misleading and does not accurately understand the issue. To my mind that is your failure. If you want to debate any controversial topic you lose if you are not well informed, and even worse when you present disinformation. It's your reputation to ruin. If you avoid using facts you have lost. You are feee to believe whatever you want, but you will be fact checked in open debate.
ex·trem·ist
a person who holds extreme or fanatical political or religious views, especially one who resorts to or advocates extreme action:
I would include anyone who argues for a position that is incomplete and uses disinformation.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It refers to food, not dancing, so it is irrelevant. But what you are saying is that Chriztians can be wrong, including you. Since you rely on faith and not reason what chance is there that you aren't making a list of errors? The massive diversity of Christian beliefs inform us that nerly all Christians are getting something wrong. The dilemma is that none of we observers can be sure any Christian claim of truth is correct. Look at the variety of beliefs and interpretation on this thread, quite a lot of disagreement.
It's the principle that is outlined in more than one example.

Anyone can be wrong (obviously).

Yes, everyone can't have it all right. But, basically, no one disagrees with the foundational truths. No dilemma in that point.

And, yes, where we disagree can be found on this forum. But you do have your own mind and God's Spirit will lead you into all truth if you let Him.

Wouldn't honoring God's love command mean the duty is to your fellow humans and the planet? I doubt God is so insecure that he needs worship and praise.
I'm not sure how "praise" got into the subject. But, yes, God doesn't need our worship and praise. I don't give it because He needs it or because I "have" to give it. I give it because of love and out of thankfulness that He saved me from a divorce.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I found it quite reliable. :) Thanks for asking.
Too bad it doesn't work for others without your set of baises.
ROFL... you don't need God for a ticket to behaving badly - or forgiveness either... you and I do just fine in and of ourselves
Many Christians demonstrate this through history.
And it isn't sin or the lack thereof that saves either as neither are the good works or a good moral behavior either, IMU.

BUT YOU ARE RIGHT! Jesus was executed and sacrificed for the sins of mankind! It isn't the "sins" that condemn us but rather the one sin as Jesus outlined in John 16:8-11 and John 3:16-17. :)
I would think believers would take this more seriously than they do.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
As clarified in Mt 13:41, it would be the "message" that leads one to "commit lawlessness", such as the gospel of grace/cross, whereas Paul has nailed the law to the cross, and his followers has made an attempt to make it "obsolete".
There is no grace in the message of Jesus?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

 

F1fan

Veteran Member
It's the principle that is outlined in more than one example.

Anyone can be wrong (obviously).
Locate a mirror, see the plank in your eye. Can't see it? The plank must be in the way. That's an excuse to not reflect and be open to change.
Yes, everyone can't have it all right. But, basically, no one disagrees with the foundational truths. No dilemma in that point.
Like the Trinity.

Oops, no. That's pretty major, don't you think?

My point is that how can any Christian be confident in what they think is true? The anxiety must be intolerable.
And, yes, where we disagree can be found on this forum. But you do have your own mind and God's Spirit will lead you into all truth if you let Him.
This is something you have wrong. There's nothing I can determine to be any God. This could be a form of theological bullying, as if you can state your personal belief as if it is factual and appliable to me. That's bad manners, and a rule violation.
I'm not sure how "praise" got into the subject. But, yes, God doesn't need our worship and praise. I don't give it because He needs it or because I "have" to give it. I give it because of love and out of thankfulness that He saved me from a divorce.
That's bad news for churches.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It defined transsexualism as " [a] desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with Transsexual - Wikipedia

It is called gender dysphoria, and is a mental problem.
No, that only scrapes the surface. The brains of the transgender are physically different then those of cis people and tend to match those of the opposite sex:

"Some (or perhaps all) of the aforementioned variables may have contributed to neuroanatomical variations in transgender brains, as repeatedly observed in both post mortem and in vivo studies published over the past three decades [10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28]."


And are you a mental health expert? Calling gender dysphoria a disease may not be merited. Is that different from you and I, yes. Does that make it a disease? I am not so sure about that. Calling it a disease puts another burden of proof on you, one that neither you nor I are qualified to judge.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Too bad it doesn't work for others without your set of baises.

Oh, it does work! A car works but you just can't put any key to the ignition and then say "it doesn't work without your set of biases" :)

Sometime getting the manual and understanding "how" it works, helps. :)

Many Christians demonstrate this through history.

As do atheists, agnostics, muslims, Hindus and Buddhists. I'm sure you are trying to make a point but it seems like I have already agreed to what I thought was your point.
I would think believers would take this more seriously than they do.
True, true.

Sometimes it is a failure to study (I should know - been there and done that)
Sometimes it is hardheadedness
Sometimes it is pride... and the list can be exhaustive.

But what you said is true
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If you hit the link to your statement... just "why" do you come to that point.
The point was that that verse in no way says or implies that the Bible is literally true. If it is "useful . People make the error of concentrating on only the first half of that verse and put their own interpretation on it. They ignore the last half when they try to claim it supports a literal interpretation of the Bible:

". . . profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

If a verse can be used for teaching, it meets the requirement, If it is useful for correction, it meets the requirement, or if it is useful in "training for righteousness" it meets that requirement. None of those have anything to do with being literally true. Jesus spoke in parables. They were not meant to be taken literally. But they all do meet those requirements (even though technically by that verse they are not the "word of God").
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The point was that that verse in no way says or implies that the Bible is literally true. If it is "useful . People make the error of concentrating on only the first half of that verse and put their own interpretation on it. They ignore the last half when they try to claim it supports a literal interpretation of the Bible:

". . . profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

If a verse can be used for teaching, it meets the requirement, If it is useful for correction, it meets the requirement, or if it is useful in "training for righteousness" it meets that requirement. None of those have anything to do with being literally true. Jesus spoke in parables. They were not meant to be taken literally. But they all do meet those requirements (even though technically by that verse they are not the "word of God").
OK... :) Thanks for taking time to answer. And, technically, you have points that are right.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
OK... :) Thanks for taking time to answer. And, technically, you have points that are right.
Thank you. Do you also see that Romans 3 4 was a very bad verse to use. by my opponent? Especially since he had to quote mine it? Personally I think that quote mining the Bible is wrong no matter which side does it. In fact quote mining in general is almost always used as a form of lying. He may have been merely quoting Liars for Jesus (aka apologists) in his use of that verse. The verse was actually about circumcision and how some Jews not following the law does not negate that God is keeping his promise to the Jews. In fact the part that is often abused essentially says that even if every Jew did not follow the law that God would still keep his promises. That was not an excuse not to circumcise, but a recognition that God's connection to the Jews was deeper than just that.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
No, that only scrapes the surface. The brains of the transgender are physically different then those of cis people and tend to match those of the opposite sex:

"Some (or perhaps all) of the aforementioned variables may have contributed to neuroanatomical variations in transgender brains, as repeatedly observed in both post mortem and in vivo studies published over the past three decades [10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28]."


And are you a mental health expert? Calling gender dysphoria a disease may not be merited. Is that different from you and I, yes. Does that make it a disease? I am not so sure about that. Calling it a disease puts another burden of proof on you, one that neither you nor I are qualified to judge.
I called "gender dysphoria" a "mental problem/disorder", not a "disease". If it were a disease, your Pharma could be making a huge profit in supposedly curing it, whereas they probably helped initiated it through chemicals they produced that are found in the food chain, much like frogs with too many legs, or too many heads. And yes, chemicals affect the brain, just as stomach flora, produced by poor nutrition affects the brain as well. One of the cures was for people too incorporate the waste taken from healthy people. You might consider going down that road.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
There is no grace in the message of Jesus?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

The "world might be saved", if indeed they heeded his message (Mt 7:24-27), but in fact, the "many" chose the "wide""way" to "destruction". The "grace" of God, is that he chose the "elect" from the foundation of the world, and even they could be "deceived""if possible" (Mt 24:24).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Even biology that has the binary male/female has defects and inconsistencies. It's not common, but it is reality. American Christians have a history of thinking in black and white absolutes, and these don't work with what we observe of nature. It's not just biology that has exceptions, but human psychology is not absolute. Many conservatives Christians show contempt for sciences and expecially psychology. The sciences advance as more evidence and data is collected, and how a small portion of humans experience themselves does not fit their biology. Is it right or wrong? Science isn't to judge. The social sciences examine behaviors and classify attitudes and behaviors that cause harm in categories that are negative. Being gay used to be thought of as a form of mental illness but as science has examined gay people that is no longer the case. Trans people seem to be in a similar category where no one is harmed. The only harm that is being observed these days is conservative politics that vilify these people and those who care for them. The motivation for conservative politics is more black and white Christian thinking.
Well, people are born without arms and legs, and while an exception, it is not normal, and probably has underlying causes, such as consumption of certain medications produced by Big Pharma. The same is probably with respect to the trans movement to a certain extent. As for "science", it changes every hour and every day. That includes hard science as well as your mushy liberal arts science, which is having to rethink because the new data doesn't confirm their prejudices, which apparently you didn't get the memo. It is the trans who have been committing suicide, whether they are taken serious or not. That is a problem for the trans whether the "conservatives" knew of their existence or not, and for the most part, until recently, the trans were not on the radar of anyone but the trans.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I would include anyone who argues for a position that is incomplete and uses disinformation
I think cutting off body parts of children is "radical". Except for the "radical" elements of society, such as the Progressives now in the Administration, cutting off body parts of children is radical, whether I point out the "body parts" being cut off, and being "incomplete" or not.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Oh, it does work! A car works but you just can't put any key to the ignition and then say "it doesn't work without your set of biases" :)

Sometime getting the manual and understanding "how" it works, helps. :)
Religious faith is an imaginary car that you pretend gets you to your destination.

Ordinary faith is a trust that real things are as they should be.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I think cutting off body parts of children is "radical". Except for the "radical" elements of society, such as the Progressives now in the Administration, cutting off body parts of children is radical, whether I point out the "body parts" being cut off, and being "incomplete" or not.
Misleading statement.
 
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