Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The Trinity certainly does exist, as a false doctrine of Christianity.
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By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...
- Thread starter YoursTrue
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why should anyone believe you?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Good question...
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Some Christians believe Jesus is God; some don't. I think that this is yet another example of just how divided Christians are. We can add it to the long list of doctrinal and scriptural disputes that they have had amongst themselves since the early years of Christianity. The irony is that all these different Christian sects believe that their preferred version of Christianity is the only correct one, and yet they can't even agree on what the Bible actually says. Oh, the irony.
That’s perfectly all right… the Bible says “Until we come into the unity of the faith” and not “unity of the doctrine". I think God is bigger than all that.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
All my life, I've heard Christians claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and that they have "spiritual discernment" to properly understand the Bible, and yet Christianity is vastly divided by various sects of Christians who adhere to different (often contradictory) doctrinal beliefs and interpretations of the Bible.
How many Christians do you know that...
1) Deny the existence of God
2) Deny that Jesus is the Messiah
3) Deny that Jesus is the Son of God
4) Deny that Jesus was crucified
5) Deny that Jesus was resurrected
6) Deny that the Bible is the Word of God
..?
a) How do you know what is proper understanding of the Bible?
b) How do you know what is spiritual discernment?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I would say that quite a few, I cannot give you percentages, that disagree with the faulty "Bible is the Word of God" claim. At least as fundamentalists abuse that idea. Almost all believe that it is inspired by God but the Catholic Church, which alone represents over half of all Christians treat biblical literalism as blasphemy.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
In this modern age, not all Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected, and even those who believe it do not all believe it strongly.
What percentage of people believe in the resurrection?
While 66% of Americans say the biblical accounts of Jesus' resurrection are accurate, fewer (47%) strongly agree. Even among those who regularly attend church, just 71% strongly agree. Mar 25, 2024
Study shows most Americans believe in the physical ...
A quarter of people who describe themselves as Christians in Great Britain do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus, a survey commissioned by the BBC suggests.
Resurrection did not happen, say quarter of Christians
8% of non-religious people think Jesus did rise from the dead, suggests a survey.
www.bbc.com
I think that @Sgt. Pepper knows what is proper understanding of the Bible because she was a Christian for 30 years, and she has studied the Bible cover to cover.
How do you know what is proper understanding of the Bible?
How do you know what is spiritual discernment?
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Disagreements are inevitable and to be expected and are not all bad.
walt
Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I think Proverbs 8:22-23 is true, If we look at what the 72 Jewish Men wrote in Greek, long before the debates started?
Which translations would you trust, translations in the middle of a heated theological debates?
Or translations that were written before the debates even existed? At a time before the conflict started?
Why trust the LXX Septuagint written in Greek?
(285–247 BCE) by seventy-two Hebrew translators—six from each of the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
1. It is a very early manuscript.
2. It was written by 72 Jewish Men, and backed up by all 72 copies.
3. It reflects what Jewish people had written down, before the debates about Christ Jesus started.
4. 72 different Jewish men selected Greek words that had the same meaning as the Hebrew words.
5. The Lxx Septuagint has some Greek words with only a single meaning, words from both languages
have totally different meanings sometimes revealing the earliest meaning before the debate started.
Take Proverbs 8:22-23 for example: [ In the middle of a Huge Debate ].
The Latin Vulgate by Jerome is a late-4th-century Latin translation of the Bible.
The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made any thing from the beginning. 23 I was set up from eternity, and of old, before the earth was made.
This Lxx Greek word [ ἔκτισέ ] never means possessed, It means created or made.
The Lxx Septuagint has not changed for some 2000 years on this one verse.
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The Lord created me the head of his ways for his works. 23 before the eon he founded me in the beginning, before the [ the earth making ]. -Proverbs 8:22-23 Apostolic Bible Polyglot English
CAB(i) 22 The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. 23 He established me in the beginning, before time was, before He made the earth.
LXX2012(i) 22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 He established me before time [was] in the beginning, before he made the earth:
Thomson(i) 22 The Lord created me, the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 Before this age he founded me; in the beginning; before he made the earth.
Brenton(i) 22 The Lord made me the beginning of his ways for his works. 23 He established me before time was in the beginning, before he made the earth:
Brenton_Greek(i) 22 Κύριος ἔκτισέ με ἀρχὴν ὁδῶν αὐτοῦ εἰς ἔργα αὐτοῦ,
Bagster LXX Proverbs 8:22-23: “The Lord created me a beginning of His ways for His works. He established me before the Age, in the beginning, before He made the earth.
NETS-LXX(E): "...The Lord created me as the beginning of his ways, for the sake of his works. 23. Before the present age he founded me in the beginning. 24. Before he made the earth
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YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'd have to research. The history of Bible translation can be complex. I go slowly, Walt.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Just for clarity, @Trailblazer why should anyone believe you either?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Interesting about the journeys of Paul and Timothy to the early Christian congregations.
So true… no internet, no phones, no cars but able to change the world in a few years.
All that you have shown is that translation from one language to another is not an exact science. There are simply too many variables and nuances of meaning to come up with a one-to-ine correspondence.
The Septuagint was the Bible in use in the Greek-speaking world and is often quoted in Greek by the New Testament authors. That is why there is sometimes a difference between the Hebrew Bible and the Septuagint, and that difference is compounded when those translations are quoted in the various English Bibles.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Very interesting account, yes. Can't make this type of report up.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
In this modern age, not all Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected, and even those who believe it do not all believe it strongly.
What percentage of people believe in the resurrection?
While 66% of Americans say the biblical accounts of Jesus' resurrection are accurate, fewer (47%) strongly agree. Even among those who regularly attend church, just 71% strongly agree. Mar 25, 2024
Study shows most Americans believe in the physical ...
A quarter of people who describe themselves as Christians in Great Britain do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus, a survey commissioned by the BBC suggests.
Resurrection did not happen, say quarter of Christians
8% of non-religious people think Jesus did rise from the dead, suggests a survey.www.bbc.com
I know some Christians who are now skeptical of the biblical accounts about Jesus after reading the sources I provided for them, including Jesus in comparative mythology. It was an eye-opener for them, just as it was for me. These Christians, like me, were initially unaware of the striking parallels between the stories of Jesus and other divine savior stories that predate the Bible and Christianity. Each of these Christians attempted to proselytize by preaching their preferred doctrinal beliefs and biblical interpretations about salvation. The irony was that they contradicted one another. They tried to convert me back to Christianity, but I stopped them in their tracks. My years of study as a devout Christian, evangelist, and street preacher paid off.
More times than I can count.
The irony is that Christians believe that they properly understand the Bible and have spiritual discernment, but they constantly contradict one another about the Bible and their doctrinal beliefs. They are so divided that they can't even agree about whether salvation in Jesus is conditional or unconditional.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
When did I EVER say that anyone should believe me?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't know. But you do believe bahaullah's words, don't you?