That is very interesting. I recall reading that in the 1950s, 95% of the U.S. population were Christians.
Given that, my parents were a rarity, since they dropped out of Christianity long before I was born, which is why I did not have a Christian upbringing. I never even read one page of the Bible until I was 60 years old, and then only because I had started to post on some religious forums, before I came here.
I think you were very fortunate to not have a Christian upbringing. To be honest, I regret my husband and I indoctrinating our children in Christianity, but they, like me, overcame it and ultimately rejected it. My husband is the last one to hold out, but he doesn't attend church as often as he once did or read the Bible and pray as often. He's 60 years old and has been a devout Christian all of his life, raised in the church, and his father is a retired pastor. I don't know if he'll abandon his Christian beliefs or not, but his faith isn't as strong as it used to be. It's his spiritual journey, so I will respect it just as he did mine.
That is very interesting. I recall reading that in the 1950s, 95% of the U.S. population were Christians.
Given that, my parents were a rarity, since they dropped out of Christianity long before I was born, which is why I did not have a Christian upbringing. I never even read one page of the Bible until I was 60 years old, and then only because I had started to post on some religious forums, before I came here.
I was not born into a Christian family, but I had a Bible and would read it at night. I surely did not understand it until much later when I began studying it with guidance. Does Bahaullah mention about the Ethiopian official who came to Jerusalem to worship with the Jews? He was reading from Isaiah, but did not understand it. And so he was helped to understand it.
From Acts chapter 8:
"26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go south to the desert road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official in charge of the entire treasury of Candace,a queen of the Ethiopians. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his return was sitting in his chariot reading Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to that chariot and stay by it.” 30So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. 31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him."
I was not born into a Christian family, but I had a Bible and would read it at night. I surely did not understand it until much later when I began studying it with guidance. Does Bahaullah mention about the Ethiopian official who came to Jerusalem to worship with the Jews? He was reading from Isaiah, but did not understand it. And so he was helped to understand it.
No, Baha'u'llah does not mention the Ethiopian official who came to Jerusalem to worship with the Jews.
As I see it, the problem with studying the Bible with someone is that you could be guided wrongly if that person or Church does not understand the Bible correctly. I believe that has definitely been the case with the JW Church. I think they correctly interpret some of the scriptures, but not the ones that refer to the afterlife.
[ Belief: Jesus is our Lord, the Son of God and God is His God and Father ]
Jesus gives us instructions and so does the Bible:
1. "I am God's son" "my Father who is in the heavens" "my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." "This is my Son, the beloved"
John 10:36, Matthew 7:21, Matt 3:17,
John 3:16-18, Matthew 11:27, John 3:35, Luke 10:22, John 6:46, Luke 3:32, John 3:13, John 6:38, 8:23, 42; John 17:5, Matt 16:13-17, John 14:1
"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!" 1 Peter 1:3, Ephesians 1:3, 17; 2 Corinthians 1:3, 11:31; Romans 15:6, Rev 1:6, 1 Cor 15:24, Colossians 1:3, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, 1st Timothy 2:5, John 17:1-3, John 20:17, 2 John 3, 2 Peter 1:17, 1 Tim 1:1, 2 Thess 1:1-2, John 20:31, John 1:34, Galatians 4:4, Acts 20:28, Luke 1:32-35, 1 John 4:9, John 1:34, Hebrews 4:14, John 1:49, Galatians 4:6, Matthew 27:40, Romans 8:3, 32; 1 John 4:9-10, Matthew 14:33, Acts 9:20, Hebrews 1:2, 1 John 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:47, Deuteronomy 6:4, Mark 12:29, Mark 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:23, 11:3, 15:27-28, Isaiah 46:9
Can you explain each detail of your belief, word for word from Bible Scriptures, ONLY ?
Thank you all for your interest in gaining Knowledge, I am just trying to learn more, just like the next person.
I was not born into a Christian family, but I had a Bible and would read it at night. I surely did not understand it until much later when I began studying it with guidance. Does Bahaullah mention about the Ethiopian official who came to Jerusalem to worship with the Jews? He was reading from Isaiah, but did not understand it. And so he was helped to understand it.
From Acts chapter 8:
"26Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go south to the desert road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official in charge of the entire treasury of Candace,a queen of the Ethiopians. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, 28and on his return was sitting in his chariot reading Isaiah the prophet. 29The Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to that chariot and stay by it.” 30So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. 31“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him."
No, Baha'u'llah does not mention the Ethiopian official who came to Jerusalem to worship with the Jews.
As I see it, the problem with studying the Bible with someone is that you could be guided wrongly if that person or Church does not understand the Bible correctly. I believe that as definitely been the case with the JW Church. I think they correctly interpret some of the scriptures, but not the ones that refer to the afterlife.
I agree with you that people can be sincere but misguided. I was just reading about early church leaders in their own words like from the 3rd century, and realize they were having problems in definitions. This adds weight in my mind to the fact (idea) that the Bible has essentially not been altered and has been preserved as basically written. In fact, reading about the Christian disciple Timothy who traveled along with Paul, a much older man, they went to strengthen and clarify certain things in the various early Christian congregations. But it has been stated in the Bible that apostasy (false contrary teaching) would set in. And some people can be and are very confused.
No, Baha'u'llah does not mention the Ethiopian official who came to Jerusalem to worship with the Jews.
As I see it, the problem with studying the Bible with someone is that you could be guided wrongly if that person or Church does not understand the Bible correctly. I believe that has definitely been the case with the JW Church. I think they correctly interpret some of the scriptures, but not the ones that refer to the afterlife.
That is one reason why prayer for understanding and guidance is essential. No matter what religion a person is a part of or born into. I know God answered my prayers and I did not recognize the answer when it first came to me.
That is one reason why prayer for understanding and guidance is essential. No matter what religion a person is a part of or born into. I know God answered my prayers and I did not recognize the answer when it first came to me.
I agree, and I pray for guidance. There are many revealed Baha'i prayers for guidance. The following prayer is a favorite of mine, one I have memorized which summarizes my beliefs about the power of God.
I adjure Thee by Thy might, O my God! Let no harm beset me in times of tests, and in moments of heedlessness guide my steps aright through Thine inspiration. Thou art God, potent art Thou to do what Thou desirest. No one can withstand Thy Will or thwart Thy Purpose.
Baha'i Prayers (English): I adjure Thee by Thy might, O my God! Let no harm beset me in times of tests, and in moments of heedlessness guide my steps aright...
Most people are unaware what your scriptures say that your god commanded and have their own idea of gods or no god belief at all. I have a different worldview by which I live.
As you have read several times since you posted that, Christians disagree among themselves, and they say what you say - "You've got it wrong. Yours are false beliefs. Mine are correct." To an outsider, it's clear that there is no single distinct message, but rather, one is free to craft his own version of Christianity and insist that it alone is correct.
I have a different understanding of right behavior than your religion teaches. I don't consider homophobia, for example, to be "righteous" behavior. Nor is theocracy.
It doesn't work out well for the humans. In the Garden story, man lost paradise and immortality. In the flood story, almost all of humanity and the rest of terrestrial life were drowned. With the Tower of Babel story, we see this god confounding mankind by creating pockets of mutually unintelligible speakers.
I'm sure that YOU believe that, but why should others thing that aren't deluding yourself? I don't believe you know such a thing however certain YOU might be.
Hebrews 11:1, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see." This means the assurance that God exists.
Hebrews 11:6, "Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Put those two verses together and you have your answer. It's not belief, it's knowledge.
That's not knowledge, at least not according to how I use the word. It's sincere belief without evidentiary justification.
For me, knowledge is the collection of demonstrably correct ideas, which excludes disproven and unfalsifiable beliefs. How do we demonstrate than an idea is correct? By using it to predict future outcomes. If I think I know how to get home and end up there, then I used knowledge, and my success getting there demonstrates that my beliefs were correct. If I end up somewhere else, my belief about how to get home has been falsified empirically. Unfalsifiable religious beliefs about gods, angels, and afterlives don't meet that bar and should be called unjustified beliefs, not knowledge.
If everybody thought like that, nobody would be calling god beliefs knowledge.
That's a common trope from the frustrated proselytizer upon encountering a critically thinking empiricist, whose standards for belief cause him to reject the unfalsifiable claims of believers.
My mind is always open to consider your god claims, but your ideas won't get past the testing center or be admitted into the fund of knowledge if you don't have enough evidence to support your claims. That is not closed-mindedness. It's the very definition of open-mindedness. What you want is for the critical thinker to relax his standards to those of the faith-based thinker, and when he won't do it you, you describe it as closed-mindedness.
Let me illustrate what open-and closed-mindedness look like:
The moderator in the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye on whether creationism is a viable scientific pursuit asked, “What would change your minds?” Scientist Bill Nye answered, “Evidence.” Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham answered, “Nothing. I'm a Christian.” Elsewhere, Ham stated, “By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."
Nye's mind is open, whereas Ham is proud to announce that his is closed to evidence.
There you go again objecting to not being believed by a critically thinking empiricist. He won't give credence to insufficiently justified claims.
But you are correct that there is no point in trying to convince such a person without compelling evidence, just as there is no point in presenting evidence to a faith-based thinker who didn't come to his beliefs using evidence and reason, and can't be budged from them by it as Ken Ham said about himself.
That's just a phrase that believers use to endorse their personal understanding of scripture (for example) and why it is correct: they got supernatural help in understanding.
Your years of study as a devout Christian, evangelist, and street preacher "paid off". Exactly how? By causing you to lose your faith and drift aimlessly through life until the end? Very admirable! LOL!
Moreover, most of us who have left Christianity have led satisfying and purposive lives. How uncharitable of you to mock and demean her for rejecting your beliefs. She, like me, is obviously happier living outside of them.
I find that many Christians seem to have no idea what life can be like outside of their religion. They think of us like you do. We are called rebellious, wanting to live a licentious and dissolute life, and immoral by people who know very little about how we actually live or what we want.
You would call my life aimless and yours directed, but mine is not aimless. It has been redirected since leaving Christianity, a life I considered misdirected. I wasted time and money living it that I have since reclaimed.
Since leaving the religion, I have saved countless thousands of hours not reading scripture and not attending churches, and saved thousands of tithe dollars. Those hours and dollars were repurposed to things that have brought me a lifetime of enjoyment. I not only have no regrets about making that transition, I rank it among the best changes I've made in my life. Here's another (off-topic, so concealed):
Quitting cigarettes was another good transition, and remarkably, a similar process. Upon leaving religion, for much of a year, I kept praying to a god I no longer believed in for guidance if I had made a mistake. Withdrawing from that life was difficult. I experienced it very much like withdrawing from an addiction. It was just as hard, took just as long, and distracted my thinking progressively less until the thoughts of cigarettes and Jesus no longer causes cognitive dissonance.
But both made my life better and allowed me to redirect resources to more profitable endeavors. I must have saved over $400,000 in tithes in the 40+ years since I quit tithing, and I calculated another $127,000 in savings since I quit smoking.
Here's the math I just did to come up with that second number if anybody is interested:
How much have I saved in the 37 years since I quit that habit (besides my health and possibly my life and the scorn of others)? A pack of cigarettes is about $8 in the States (ranges from $6-$12) and here in Mexico they're about 60 pesos ($3), where I have lived 15 years. I'll assume that they were $2/pack when we got here, so $2.50/pack average.
I was smoking 2 packs a day when I quit, when the price was about half of these numbers. So, probably an average of $6 a pack not smoked before expatriating 15 years ago, and about $2.50 a pack since, so 22yrs x 2pks/day x 365days/yr x $6/pack= about $100,000 before expatriating, and another 15 yrs x 2 packs/day x 365 days/yr x $2.50/pack = about $27,500 since
I agree, and I pray for guidance. There are many revealed Baha'i prayers for guidance. The following prayer is a favorite of mine, one I have memorized which summarizes my beliefs about the power of God.
I adjure Thee by Thy might, O my God! Let no harm beset me in times of tests, and in moments of heedlessness guide my steps aright through Thine inspiration. Thou art God, potent art Thou to do what Thou desirest. No one can withstand Thy Will or thwart Thy Purpose.
Baha'i Prayers (English): I adjure Thee by Thy might, O my God! Let no harm beset me in times of tests, and in moments of heedlessness guide my steps aright...
On that account, many pray for God's kingdom to come, as Jesus taught. I don't think they really know what he meant or what they're praying for. I prayed after many years of not praying to the God if He was there -- and yes, He answered me. It was not a prescribed prayer, by the way. Because at the time I wasn't even sure he was there or who He was. He answered me and for a while I didn't even know that He answered me. But He did. Take care.
No, I don't think those who pray for God's kingdom to come know what they are praying for, although some people believe they know what it will look like. Baha'is have a vision of what it will be like, which is very different from what certain Christians believe it will be like.
I prayed after many years of not praying to the God if He was there -- and yes, He answered me. It was not a prescribed prayer, by the way. Because at the time I wasn't even sure he was there or who He was. He answered me and for a while I didn't even know that He answered me. But He did. Take care.
I say a lot of prayers that are not prescribed prayers, often just crying out for help, since I usually need help.
I have always known that God was there listening, although in the past I had no heartfelt connection to God, and I had even been angry at God for many years. All that is gone now. I know that God is the help in peril, often my only help. There is a Baha'i prayer that says "thou art more a friend to me than I am to myself." I really believe that.
Most people are unaware what your scriptures say that your god commanded and have their own idea of gods or no god belief at all. I have a different worldview by which I live.
As you have read several times since you posted that, Christians disagree among themselves, and they say what you say - "You've got it wrong. Yours are false beliefs. Mine are correct." To an outsider, it's clear that there is no single distinct message, but rather, one is free to craft his own version of Christianity and insist that it alone is correct.
I have a different understanding of right behavior than your religion teaches. I don't consider homophobia, for example, to be "righteous" behavior. Nor is theocracy.
It doesn't work out well for the humans. In the Garden story, man lost paradise and immortality. In the flood story, almost all of humanity and the rest of terrestrial life were drowned. With the Tower of Babel story, we see this god confounding mankind by creating pockets of mutually unintelligible speakers.
I'm sure that YOU believe that, but why should others thing that aren't deluding yourself? I don't believe you know such a thing however certain YOU might be.
That's not knowledge, at least not according to how I use the word. It's sincere belief without evidentiary justification.
For me, knowledge is the collection of demonstrably correct ideas, which excludes disproven and unfalsifiable beliefs. How do we demonstrate than an idea is correct? By using it to predict future outcomes. If I think I know how to get home and end up there, then I used knowledge, and my success getting there demonstrates that my beliefs were correct. If I end up somewhere else, my belief about how to get home has been falsified empirically. Unfalsifiable religious beliefs about gods, angels, and afterlives don't meet that bar and should be called unjustified beliefs, not knowledge.
If everybody thought like that, nobody would be calling god beliefs knowledge.
That's a common trope from the frustrated proselytizer upon encountering a critically thinking empiricist, whose standards for belief cause him to reject the unfalsifiable claims of believers.
My mind is always open to consider your god claims, but your ideas won't get past the testing center or be admitted into the fund of knowledge if you don't have enough evidence to support your claims. That is not closed-mindedness. It's the very definition of open-mindedness. What you want is for the critical thinker to relax his standards to those of the faith-based thinker, and when he won't do it you, you describe it as closed-mindedness.
Let me illustrate what open-and closed-mindedness look like:
The moderator in the debate between Ken Ham and Bill Nye on whether creationism is a viable scientific pursuit asked, “What would change your minds?” Scientist Bill Nye answered, “Evidence.” Young Earth Creationist Ken Ham answered, “Nothing. I'm a Christian.” Elsewhere, Ham stated, “By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record."
Nye's mind is open, whereas Ham is proud to announce that his is closed to evidence.
How is that different from what you do? That's what debate is.
There you go again objecting to not being believed by a critically thinking empiricist. He won't give credence to insufficiently justified claims.
But you are correct that there is no point in trying to convince such a person without compelling evidence, just as there is no point in presenting evidence to a faith-based thinker who didn't come to his beliefs using evidence and reason, and can't be budged from them by it as Ken Ham said about himself.
That's just a phrase that believers use to endorse their personal understanding of scripture (for example) and why it is correct: they got supernatural help in understanding.
I'd call that a huge pay-off.
Moreover, most of us who have left Christianity have led satisfying and purposive lives. How uncharitable of you to mock and demean her for rejecting your beliefs. She, like me, is obviously happier living outside of them.
I find that many Christians seem to have no idea what life can be like outside of their religion. They think of us like you do. We are called rebellious, wanting to live a licentious and dissolute life, and immoral by people who know very little about how we actually live or what we want.
You would call my life aimless and yours directed, but mine is not aimless. It has been redirected since leaving Christianity, a life I considered misdirected. I wasted time and money living it that I have since reclaimed.
Since leaving the religion, I have saved countless thousands of hours not reading scripture and not attending churches, and saved thousands of tithe dollars. Those hours and dollars were repurposed to things that have brought me a lifetime of enjoyment. I not only have no regrets about making that transition, I rank it among the best changes I've made in my life. Here's another (off-topic, so concealed):
Quitting cigarettes was another, and remarkably, a similar process. For much of a year, I kept praying to a god I no longer believed in, but withdrawing from that life was difficult. I experienced it very much like withdrawing from an addiction. It was just as hard, took just as long, and distracted my thinking progressively less until the thoughts of cigarettes and Jesus no longer causes cognitive dissonance.
But both made my life better and allowed me to redirect resources to more profitable endeavors. I must have saved over $400,000 in tithes in the 40+ years since I quit tithing, and I calculated another $133,000 in savings since I quit smoking (here's the math I just did to come upp wth that second number if anybody is interested):
How much have I saved in the 37 years since I quit that habit (besides my health and possibly my life and the scorn of others)? A pack of cigarettes is about $8 in the States (ranges from $6-$12) and here in Mexico they're about 60 pesos ($3) here in Mexico, where I have lived 15 years. I was smoking 2 packs a day when I quit, when the price was about half of these numbers. So, probably an average of $6 a pack not smoked before expatriating 15 years ago, and about $2 a pack since, so 22yrs x 2pks/day x 365days/yr x $6/pack= about $100,000 before expatriating, and another 15 yrs x 2 packs/day x 365 days/yr x $3/pack = about $33,000 since
I don't have any reason to believe that. I used to, but I learned more since then.
Let me reveal more of myself here: This what I believe instead:
The years after death will most likely be like the ones before birth.
If there's an afterlife, I have no reason to expect to be judged in it.
If I am judged in an afterlife, I would expect the standards to be more like mine than yours
If we are judged in an afterlife, I wouldn't expect punishment to be a part of it; the purpose would be something else, like where we best fit in.
But if we are judged and penalized for our choices, I expect to be in a better position than one who chose a religion that features irrational thought including bigotry, who preferred adherence to a received ethical code over empathetic, tolerant ethics, who disesteemed scientific knowledge and education, who approves of imposing his religious preferences on the unwilling, and who disesteemed the earth and the life on it.
If that means that I reveal a lot in my posting about my thoughts and beliefs, then thank you for that.
I don't have any reason to believe that. I used to, but I learned more since then.
Let me reveal more of myself here: This what I believe instead:
The years after death will most likely be like the ones before birth.
If there's an afterlife, I have no reason to expect to be judged in it.
If I am judged in an afterlife, I would expect the standards to be more like mine than yours
If we are judged in an afterlife, I wouldn't expect punishment to be a part of it; the purpose would be something else, like where we best fit in.
But if we are judged and penalized for our choices, I expect to be in a better position than one who chose a religion that features irrational thought including bigotry, who preferred adherence to a received ethical code over empathetic, tolerant ethics, who disesteemed scientific knowledge and education, who approves of imposing his religious preferences on the unwilling, and who disesteemed the earth and the life on it.
Oh well, not to get too involved, but going to your 3rd statement about being judged in an afterlife, I'm afraid I haven't read all your beliefs, so can you briefly explain what your standards are in reference to what you think you may be judged for.
My friend @Sgt. Pepper is not drifting aimlessly through life. She has been happily married for over 30 years and has raised five children and she now has grandchildren. I consider that very admirable.
My friend @Sgt. Pepper is not a failed Christian, she is a Christian who left the faith for good reasons. It is not like a game that she lost, but I consider her a winner for seeing the light leaving Christianity, which I consider a religion full of false beliefs and false doctrines.
Christianity could have been a true religion because Jesus is truly from God, but the religion went way off track so it is now full of false beliefs and false doctrines, and as such it is not a true religion.
True and false in what sense? That it isn't true or that everyone belonging to it doesn't understand it as you think they ought? I would dare say that at least this much is true for every religion, therefor making every religion no less false than the "one" you are proclaiming to be. This premise reaches far into other territories, also. Even the sciences. Adherent ignorance does not make anything false. It simply makes it misunderstood by those who proclaim it and perhaps also by those who proclaim it to be.
I said: Christianity could have been a true religion because Jesus is truly from God, but the religion went way off track so it is now full of false beliefs and false doctrines, and as such it is not a true religion.
According to my beliefs, I think that Christians hold some false beliefs and follow some false doctrines.
This has nothing to do with what I think Christians 'ought to do.' Christians should do whatever they think is best, just as I am doing.
I said: Christianity could have been a true religion because Jesus is truly from God, but the religion went way off track so it is now full of false beliefs and false doctrines, and as such it is not a true religion.
According to my beliefs, I think that Christians hold some false beliefs and follow some false doctrines.
This has nothing to do with what I think Christians 'ought to do.' Christians should do whatever they think is best, just as I am doing.
If that means that I reveal a lot in my posting about my thoughts and beliefs, then thank you for that.
I don't have any reason to believe that. I used to, but I learned more since then.
Let me reveal more of myself here: This what I believe instead:
The years after death will most likely be like the ones before birth.
If there's an afterlife, I have no reason to expect to be judged in it.
If I am judged in an afterlife, I would expect the standards to be more like mine than yours
If we are judged in an afterlife, I wouldn't expect punishment to be a part of it; the purpose would be something else, like where we best fit in.
But if we are judged and penalized for our choices, I expect to be in a better position than one who chose a religion that features irrational thought including bigotry, who preferred adherence to a received ethical code over empathetic, tolerant ethics, who disesteemed scientific knowledge and education, who approves of imposing his religious preferences on the unwilling, and who disesteemed the earth and the life on it.
