By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[Polymath257]

Really? What is your test for judging the motive and intention of a persons heart?

Their actions.

 

[Polymath257]

Well, that’s you, I found that until I came to God on His terms I got nothing but silence. I found The Truth

In other words, you have to believe *before* there is evidence. That is NOT the way to wisdom: it leads to self-deception and confirmation bias.

It's clear your beliefs and opinions work for you. That doesn't make them the truth.

 

[Polymath257]

In my faith, you would need to consider the truth of the words of Jesus with the evidence of a resurrection. Just judge his words and life. if it doesn’t speak to you… ok! At least you gave his words a shot.

As I read the words of Jesus (during his life), he was an apocalyptic prophet trying to warn people of an immanent end-time.. The evidence of his resurrection is paltry.

 

[F1fan]

My purpose on this thread is to share as a Christian what I have found to be true in my relationship to God, this is not theory but a walk with the Living God and testimony of His faithfulness.

You adopted what others told you to believe. When you claim to have a relationship with God what exactly is it you relate to? What form does God take that isn't imagined, and that your mortal being can relate to in reality? Share that answer.

I thought the thread posted by @YoursTrue was a terrific one to ask and to hear the testimonies of fellow believers. I’ve found this verse to be true:

”As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him.“
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭18‬:‭30‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Why assume this text is literal? Where is the evidence that a rational mind needs to understand this as true?

I haven’t seen this happen without divine intervention, I’ve seen changes in behavior but not in heart and motive.

So any Christian who commits crimes and harm against others has God to blame? All the Christians that committed the Holocaust is God's fault for not changing their hearts, yes?

 

[Polymath257]

I haven’t seen this happen without divine intervention, I’ve seen changes in behavior but not in heart and motive.

It frequently happens when a person finds someone that they care about. That can often be the motivation for cleaning up their act and devoting themselves to something other than themselves.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It frequently happens when a person finds someone that they care about. That can often be the motivation for cleaning up their act and devoting themselves to something other than themselves.

This is a change of action but how do you know what the motive of their heart is? You don’t and divorce, breaking promises and covenants are the proof as well as selfishness in those relationships. Plus, you still don’t know if the heart change is legit or they are getting something out of the relationship themselves. How do you test this? Actions look the same, how do you know the motive?

 

[Polymath257]

This is a change of action but how do you know what the motive of their heart is? You don’t and divorce, breaking promises and covenants are the proof as well as selfishness in those relationships. Plus, you still don’t know if the heart change is legit or they are getting something out of the relationship themselves. How do you test this? Actions look the same, how do you know the motive?

The *only* way to determine real motives are actions. You cannot know that there is a 'change of heart' when someone claims to become a Christian any more than I can when they claim to love someone and their actions change to meet that claim.

As you say, the evidence is the same either way. So the conclusion should be the same.

 

[ElishaElijah]

You adopted what others told you to believe. When you claim to have a relationship with God what exactly is it you relate to? What form does God take that isn't imagined, and that your mortal being can relate to in reality? Share that answer.

I thought what the church taught as well as everyone else were full of crap and liars that’s why I lived a life of self gratification that left me empty and I drug and alcohol treatment center.
That’s when I humbled myself and cried out to God and He answered, in my search for the God who delivered me I repented and believed the Gospel and that’s when I was born again, God began to speak to me and I could discern and understand spiritual things.

 

[F1fan]

When a person is spiritually blind they cannot see the spiritual invisible realm it’s not even something I feel I need to prove it’s like the wind

The more yu explain your way of thinking the more it explains an imaginary world, and perhaps you refuse to acknowledge this. You certainly can't explain how your beliefs are something a rational mind can agree with via evidence.

Well, so what? I don’t feel the need to comment on someone else’s life or experience unless they asked me, that’s their personal testimony.

Yet you want others to accept your experiences as if they are true at face value, but refuse that when critical minds challenge how you believe your experience to be, especially as rational minds have experiences that are rooted in fact and discernable reality.

Let's note that what you share isn't really experiences, but beliefs you have that create illusions. We humans create fantasies and have emotional reactions to them, and in that sense we have experiences. But this is different than experiences at a party, or sports event, or a competition, etc. Critical thinkers recognize what believers describe when they claim spiritual experiences, and that is self-induced experiences that come after commitment to learned religious frameworks. It's not like Christians go out into a field by themselves and meditate, and have mystic experiences. Christians get indoctrinated at an early age and they carry on what they learn, unless they can reflect and apply skepticism to what they're being told.

In essence you call those rooted in discernable reality as "blind" to your illusions and fantasy, and phrased this way you would be correct. I often can't tell who believers are trying to fool, others who can reson and see through the weak claims, or themselves.

Is anything you claim based on evidence that a rational mind can recognize as true?

 

[F1fan]

I thought what the church tought as well as everyone else were full of crap and liars that’s why I lived a life of self gratification that left me empty and I drug and alcohol treatment center.

You claim that God changes hearts, so it wasn't your fault, yes? You were an addict because that is what God made you, yes? And then God changed you, correct? Is it your claim that you had no responsibility whatsoever in your change?

That’s when I humbled myself and cried out to God and He answered, in my search for the God who delivered me I repented and believed the Gospel and that’s when I was born again, God began to speak to me and I could discern and understand spiritual things.

It couldn't be that you hit bottom and as an addict you weren't worthy, but your idea of God was, so used that imagery as motivation for change? I see many who hit bottom use God as a proxy for themselves, and use this ideal self as some goal to work towards, much like the 12 step system.

Of course those who have lived stable, goal-oriented lives don't need such a dependent mechanism.

 

[ElishaElijah]

So any Christian who commits crimes and harm against others has God to blame? All the Christians that committed the Holocaust is God's fault for not changing their hearts, yes?

No this is faulty thinking, the Bible says anyone practicing sin that says they are a Christian are liars. You know them by their fruit

 

[ElishaElijah]

It couldn't be that you hit bottom and as an addict you weren't worthy, but your idea of God was, so used that imagery as motivation for change? I see many who hit bottom use God as a proxy for themselves, and use this ideal self as some goal to work towards, much like the 12 step system.

Of course those who have lived stable, goal-oriented lives don't need such a dependent mechanism.

Some people don’t need a physician so good on you, I did and found Jesus Christ who is much more than my healer, I found him to be like He said my all in all and everything.

 

[metis]

The NT was formulated on "liberalism".

I’d agree with you if there weren’t any grocery stores, hospitals, doctors, nurses or government services. People should pay for these services.

What does that have to do with what I posted on top? Of course people pay.

Liberalism isn’t voluntary it’s forced and a perversion of the NT.

So, you're against government. Jesus didn't say that, as he said "Render unto Caesar...".

 

[metis]

One thing that’s very clear here is that only God can change a persons heart.

Illogical and highly judgmental on your part.

 

[ElishaElijah]

What does that have to do with what I posted on top? Of course people pay.

So, you're against government. Jesus didn't say that, as he said "Render unto Caesar...".

I’m not against government, I’m looking forward to the Government that’s going to be established in the New Heaven and New Earth where righteousness dwells.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That’s like saying I don’t know my wife, a ridiculous comment on your part.

Not really. You can see, touch, feel, and interact with your wife. You can show us your wife.
Not so much with your god.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Not really. You can see, touch, feel, and interact with your wife. You can show us your wife.
Not so much with your god.

I can and do interact with God as I do with my wife but spiritually. And if you saw God with your eyes you’d die on the spot so that won’t do any good.
That’s why the relationship between Christ and the Church is represented by marriage between husband and wife and also why any other sexual expression is perverted and a curse on that, it perverts the character of God.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can and do interact with God as I do with my wife but spiritually.

But you can't show us this god like you could show us your wife.

And if you saw God with your eyes you’d die on the spot so that won’t do any good.

A claim lacking in evidence.

That’s why the relationship between Christ and the Church is represented by marriage between husband and wife and also why any other sexual expression is perverted and a curse on that, it perverts the character of God.

Ick. What a gross view of humanity you have there.

 

[metis]

I’m not against government, I’m looking forward to the Government that’s going to be established in the New Heaven and New Earth where righteousness dwells.

Until then, then maybe we should have as much compassion as possible to help those in need whether that be through charity and/or governmental assistance that we ALL benefit from at times.

 

[F1fan]

No this is faulty thinking, the Bible says anyone practicing sin that says they are a Christian are liars. You know them by their fruit

Well Christians admit to being sinners so talk about a no win theology.

So are you confessing to being a Christian, thus a liar?

Or do you think yourself sinless like Jesus?