By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[Subduction Zone]

Just the part of the Bible from Genesis 1:1 through to Revelation 22:21 I believe is truth.

Not if one makes the error of reading the Bible literally.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Not if one makes the error of reading the Bible literally.

I read the Bible at face value.
What is conveyed as history I read as history.
What is conveyed as parable I take as parable.
What is conveyed as poetry I regard as poetry.
I take prophecy as prophecy, wise sayings as wise sayings, etc.

The writer of the letter of Hebrews says God spoke to the people of old in many ways.
God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets, (Heb. 1:1)

What is difficult to take for some reason I put on "the back burner". As I grow in spiritual life I trust
the clearer understanding will come.

My experience is that God waits to see what I will do with the light and truth I have received so far.

For whoever has, it shall be given to him, and he will abound; but whoever does not have,
even that which he has shall be taken away from him. (Matt. 13:12)

 

[Subduction Zone]

I read the Bible at face value.
What is conveyed as history I read as history.

Let's take Genesis as an example. That is clearly "conveyed" as myth, fables, or allegory. The same can be said of Exodus. And also the Nativity stories of Jesus.

What is conveyed as parable I take as parable.

Okay, what about added parables?

What is conveyed as poetry I regard as poetry.

I can accept that.

I take prophecy as prophecy, wise sayings as wise sayings, etc.

The actual prophecies of the Bible tend to fail. Many Christians try to take some verses out of context and claim that they are prophecies when they are actually reinterpretations after the fact.

The writer of the letter of Hebrews says God spoke to the people of old in many ways.
God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets, (Heb. 1:1)

What is difficult to take for some reason I put on "the back burner". As I grow in spiritual life I trust
the clearer understanding will come.

My experience is that God waits to see what I will do with the light and truth I have received so far.

For whoever has, it shall be given to him, and he will abound; but whoever does not have,
even that which he has shall be taken away from him. (Matt. 13:12)

Okay, this looks as if you are doing some heavy duty ducking and dodging. Perhaps you should try to make it clear what you do believe.

 

[Feedmysheep]

Let's take Genesis as an example. That is clearly "conveyed" as myth, fables, or allegory. The same can be said of Exodus. And also the Nativity stories of Jesus.

Of course there is some poetic like utterances in Genesis chapters 1,2. I would not argue with that as I do not
take it as an exhaustive scientific explanation of how God created the world.

But let me check with you then.
There are 31 verses in Genesis chapter one. Could you tell me which verse/s you absolutely know to be untrue?

Take verse one. Do you have scientific information agreed upon by the majority that God did not create the heavens and the earth
in the beginning?

You have 30 more verses to examine which one/s we absolutely know are not true. Point them out.
I don't mean what you don't like you point out. I mean what you know to be false and impossible to have been the case - point out.

The actual prophecies of the Bible tend to fail. Many Christians try to take some verses out of context and claim that they are prophecies when they are actually reinterpretations after the fact.

Okay, this looks as if you are doing some heavy duty ducking and dodging. Perhaps you should try to make it clear what you do believe.

What I believe? Concisely, briefly?

I believe that the man Jesus Christ is God. He is the central meaning of life and to understand what the universe and man in it is
all about we have to examine Christ - His incarnation, life, death, resurrection, enthronement and coming to live in those who believe in Him
as the all-inclusive divine life imparting Spirit. He came to be the mingling of God and humanity for the mass production of God-men for
our enjoyment and His eternal expression.

I don't dodge hard questions. I simply say "That's too hard. Ask me something else." I have no problem admitting there are things I do
not yet understand.

Now it is your turn.
Why are you here in the universe?
Your heart beats. You breath. You think. You act. You choose and love or hate.
Why do you exist?

Most people I have asked who are skeptical of the Bible usually go for some kind of sour grapes reply like -
"Why does there have to be a purpose for life anyway?"

If that is going to be your typical answer just cut to the chase and say you have NO purpose to live nor does anyone else.
It saves much time.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Of course there is some poetic like utterances in Genesis chapters 1,2. I would not argue with that as I do not
take it as an exhaustive scientific explanation of how God created the world.

But let me check with you then.
There are 31 verses in Genesis chapter one. Could you tell me which verse/s you absolutely know to be untrue?

Take verse one. Do you have scientific information agreed upon by the majority that God did not create the heavens and the earth
in the beginning?

You have 30 more verses to examine which one/s we absolutely know are not true. Point them out.
I don't mean what you don't like you point out. I mean what you know to be false and impossible to have been the case - point out.

No, you do not get to cherry pick. We know that life is the product of evolution. We know that there was no global flood. We know that languages arose naturally from the start of humans being humans.

What I believe? Concisely, briefly?

I believe that the man Jesus Christ is God. He is the central meaning of life and to understand what the universe and man in it is
all about we have to examine Christ - His incarnation, life, death, resurrection, enthronement and coming to live in those who believe in Him
as the all-inclusive divine life imparting Spirit. He came to be the mingling of God and humanity for the mass production of God-men for
our enjoyment and His eternal expression.

That is a bit better, but you are still going to run into some problems when it comes to morality and the Bible.

I don't dodge hard questions. I simply say "That's too hard. Ask me something else." I have no problem admitting there are things I do
not yet understand.

That sounds quite a bit like dodging, though sometimes an "I don't know" is an appropriate answer.

Now it is your turn.
Why are you here in the universe?

Because I was born. I think that you meant to ask something else. You could ask again.

Your heart beats. You breath. You think. You act. You choose and love or hate.
Why do you exist?

Once again, because I was born. I know what you want to ask, why don't you do that/

Most people I have asked who are skeptical of the Bible usually go for some kind of sour grapes reply like -
"Why does there have to be a purpose for life anyway?"

See? You should have asked that question from the start. If you wanted to ask for the purpose of life you should have done so. I could ask you the same. I doubt if you could come up with an answer that was any more satisfactory than mine. Besides living and taking care of myself I would like to leave the world a better place than it was when I was born.

If that is going to be your typical answer just cut to the chase and say you have NO purpose to live nor does anyone else.
It saves much time.

You should have saved time and asked about the purpose of life. Life itself has no inherent purpose. Any purpose that we give it is a human invention. That does not mean that it is worthless, and mine is actually worth a lot more than many religious purposes of life.

 

[YoursTrue]

Just the part of the Bible from Genesis 1:1 through to Revelation 22:21 I believe is truth.

I see said the blind man...but it's good you believe the Bible. I do. I have learned to put my faith in God's word, the Bible as we know it. Thanks.

 

[YoursTrue]

Of course there is some poetic like utterances in Genesis chapters 1,2. I would not argue with that as I do not
take it as an exhaustive scientific explanation of how God created the world.

But let me check with you then.
There are 31 verses in Genesis chapter one. Could you tell me which verse/s you absolutely know to be untrue?

Take verse one. Do you have scientific information agreed upon by the majority that God did not create the heavens and the earth
in the beginning?

You have 30 more verses to examine which one/s we absolutely know are not true. Point them out.
I don't mean what you don't like you point out. I mean what you know to be false and impossible to have been the case - point out.


What I believe? Concisely, briefly?

I believe that the man Jesus Christ is God. He is the central meaning of life and to understand what the universe and man in it is
all about we have to examine Christ - His incarnation, life, death, resurrection, enthronement and coming to live in those who believe in Him
as the all-inclusive divine life imparting Spirit. He came to be the mingling of God and humanity for the mass production of God-men for
our enjoyment and His eternal expression.

I don't dodge hard questions. I simply say "That's too hard. Ask me something else." I have no problem admitting there are things I do
not yet understand.

Now it is your turn.
Why are you here in the universe?
Your heart beats. You breath. You think. You act. You choose and love or hate.
Why do you exist?

Most people I have asked who are skeptical of the Bible usually go for some kind of sour grapes reply like -
"Why does there have to be a purpose for life anyway?"

If that is going to be your typical answer just cut to the chase and say you have NO purpose to live nor does anyone else.
It saves much time.

Thinking about your very interesting answer, I certainly tend to agree with most of it, and I'd very much like to say something here and then I'll butt out. Today I was driving and saw an ambulance on the road with a police car. There was a smashed motor bike on the road and they were evidently picking up the person that got hit. Why am I saying this? Because there are many parts of life that are difficult but I also believe that God will remove all obstacles to happiness one day, including death. Revelation 21:1-5 is a wonderful prophecy and I look forward to that time, when death will be no more and all mankind will get along in peace.*Please note that I do not answer everyone, after trial and trial I have put certain people on ignore, but thank you.

 

[Feedmysheep]

No, you do not get to cherry pick.

As I go through your response I wil be looking for your known fact which renders one of the 31 verses in Gen. 1 unquestionably false.
So far I don't see it.

We know that life is the product of evolution.

Do you mean that something like the DNA molecule arose over a tremendously long period of lucky accidents?
If that is the evolution you speak of I would say that is your religion.

I don't believe things like the DNA molecule just happened without a planning mind with purpose.
If that is what you mean to me by saying "We know that life is a product of evolution"

Still looking for what scientific FACT pretty much universally agreed upon renders which verse in Genesis 1 false.

We know that there was no global flood.

I don't "know" there was no flood of Noah. I believe there was.
We are uncovering more and more megalithic structures which modern engineering cannot understand how they were achieved.
We are discovering that there must be some history of people long pre-dating the traditional concept of hunter gatherers becomming
the earliest civilizations.

Some thoughtful people are questioning the history of civilization as we have been taught.
How come these people were able to build huge structures with a precision that modern engineering can hardly accomplish.

I think secular history re-examination is inching closer to what we are told in the Bible.
Many ancient buildings were built UPON far anticedeint structures the origin of which is unknown.

I believe what we have been traditionally taught in school about the human past is woefully incomplete.
You better dust off your Bible and give it another look.

Check out videos from "The Universe Within" for documentaries about mysterious possibly pre-flood megalithic buildings.

We know that languages arose naturally from the start of humans being humans.

Are you evading my challenge with a bunch of "We know this and that"?
I would think it would have been easy to examine one or two of 31 verses to indicate "We know this sentence is not true."

You seem to want to jump to a general reference to the flood of Noah.
You know in the collective memory of earlier people there is the account of a flood which wiped out everything except for a few people.

The Chinese characters in their language are pictures which depict things told us in the Genesis flood account.
Check it out. ( cannot control ads )

That is a bit better, but you are still going to run into some problems when it comes to morality and the Bible.

You're jumping off to another discussion. Before its "But I have this OTHER problem over here"
How about first showing me which of the 31 verses in Genesis 1 you know to be impossible to be true?

That sounds quite a bit like dodging, though sometimes an "I don't know" is an appropriate answer.

That's pretty much what I said. Admitting that a question I cannot answer.
That's "Don't know."

You see I have no problem saying that I have a faith.
You have a problem admitting that you have not observed your evolution but embrace it as a religious belief.

Do you think a purposeless, aimless, series of lucky accidents gave rise over a long time to, say, the human brain ?
I think we have to look to intelligent and purposeful design for something like the human brain.

Because I was born. I think that you meant to ask something else. You could ask again.

Okay. You were born. Great. Why? Just to die and turn back into dust?
Will your last thought be as you look back over your life "Well, that certainly was strange!"

I was born and born again for the mingling of the uncreated life of God with the created humanity.
The love of Christ gives me all the meaning possible. Like here where Paul writes -

But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers
Nor height nor depth nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:37-39)

God's indestructible love and eternal life to be dispensed into my being is my reason for existence.
Nothing in creation visible or invisible can seperate me from this uncorruptible affection of God.
I mean because God loves me eternally and redeemed me to impart Himself into my being.

Most of the evolutionists I talk to say evolution HAS no purpose, no goal, no plan, no intended direction.
It is just lonnnnnnnnnng time and lucky accidents with no purpose at all.

I'm more impressed with the Gospel of Christ.
And I like science just as much as the next guy. But I want to know not just the mechanical hows of everything but the WHY.

Once again, because I was born. I know what you want to ask, why don't you do that/

I think you have told me what I wish to know.

Life itself has no inherent purpose. Any purpose that we give it is a human invention. That does not mean that it is worthless, and mine is actually worth a lot more than many religious purposes of life.

I think you have told me what I asked of you. " Life itself has no inherent purpose. "

I have a problem with this because now you can bring in the matter of morality.
I mean if Stalin has his purpose and Pol Pot has his purpose and Adolf Hitler has his purpose (just to name three)
that has moral problems.

In your system there is no final justice. There is no final accountability.
Like Adolf Eichman said - upon being hung he would jump into his grave laughing at what he got away with.

With Christ there is redemption yet also final judgement. The balancing of the scales of justice is inevitable though long in arriving.
Your system just has monstereous immorality melt peacefully into the dust with no ultimate Governor of the wickedness of sinful men.
Accountability to ultimate rightousness is nonexistent. This is the grand absurdness of it all.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Not if one makes the error of reading the Bible literally.

I think that this is a common mistake made by many Christians.

I speak from experience as a former Christian who used to believe everything in the Bible was true.

 

[walt]

After the physical body dies the spirit (soul) returns to God in heaven.

How do you get (soul) out of spirit/breath returns to God who first breathed it?
Whichever translation you like, How do you get (soul) or what you believe "Nobody's soul ever dies" ?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 is translated in different Bibles with these different words: "spirit" "breath of life" "life-giving breath" "breath of our life"
"spirit-breath returns to God who breathed it" "The spirit returns to God, who first breathed it"

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you get (soul) out of spirit/breath returns to God who first breathed it?
Whichever translation you like, How do you get (soul)?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 is translated in different Bibles with these different words: "spirit" "breath of life" "life-giving breath" "breath of our life"
"spirit-breath returns to God who breathed it" "The spirit returns to God, who first breathed it"

I explained that in post #3913.

Genesis 2:7 KJ21
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

According to the verse above, man became a living soul when God gave man life (breathed life into man).
So the soul is the breath of life that goes back to God.

 

[YoursTrue]

I explained that in post #3913.

Genesis 2:7 KJ21
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

According to the verse above, man became a living soul when God gave man life (breathed life into man).
So the soul is the breath of life that goes back to God.

I will say this in respect to the scripture at Genesis 2:7. Man became a living soul. Then there could be a dead soul, you think? If there is a "living soul," conversely there would be a dead soul.

 

[Trailblazer]

I will say this in respect to the scripture at Genesis 2:7. Man became a living soul. Then there could be a dead soul, you think? If there is a "living soul," conversely there would be a dead soul.

Genesis 2:7 KJ21
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

No, that is not logical. Just because man because man became a living soul that does not mean that the living soul can die.

 

[YoursTrue]

Genesis 2:7 KJ21
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

No, that is not logical. Just because man because man became a living soul that does not mean that the living soul can die.

Except that the Bible says it can die. Didn't you know that?

 

[walt]

According to the verse above, man became a living soul when God gave man life (breathed life into man).
So the soul is the breath of life that goes back to God.

1. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,
2. and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
3. and man became a living soul.................................Note: the breath is not the same as the living soul here in this scripture.

So if a man formed from the dust and.....breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; = a living soul.
It sounds like the body of the man..plus..the breath into his nostrils..the man becomes a living soul.
Formed man+breath = living soul.

Still I ask the question how do you get (soul) out of spirit/breath at Ecclesiastes 12:7 ? one scripture at a time please.

 

[Trailblazer]

Except that the Bible says it can die. Didn't you know that?

Of course I know that the Bible says that, and I also know what it means, as does any Christian who understands the Bible.

Ezekiel 18:4 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Whenever the Bible says that the soul that sins shall die, that means that soul will not gain eternal life. It does not mean that soul will cease to exist. No soul cannot ever cease to exist because the soul is immortal.

That verse above means that the soul that sins will not have eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is close to God.
That soul will be spiritually dead, but it will continue to exist in the spiritual realm after the body dies.
Only physical things die. A soul cannot die because it is not physical.

The soul is eternal, the body perishes.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body.
He was referring to the life of a person (soul) who knows Him and the one true God.

John 17:3 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

Soul Cannot Die
The Scripture says the spirit, or soul, cannot be annihilated. Though the body may die, the spirit will live on. Death, therefore is not the end of conscious life. It is the separation of the body and the spirit. The spirit, however, lives on in another realm. The body is only the temporary residence of humans.

Jesus said. Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).

Destroy has the idea of punish, not annihilate. The destruction of the soul means separation from the life of God. Though living, the soul of the unbeliever has no connection whatsoever to God.

Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?

The Bible teaches that humans are made up of both body and spirit. Life begins when the two are united, and life ends when the two are separated. Death Of The

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[walt]

Still I ask the question how do you get (soul) out of spirit/breath at Ecclesiastes 12:7 ? one scripture at a time please.

 

[YoursTrue]

Genesis 2:7 KJ21
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

No, that is not logical. Just because man because man became a living soul that does not mean that the living soul can die.

Once again -- if something BECOMES something, like if a person becomes a taxi driver, do you think that means means he was a taxi driver before he became one? And that he will always be a taxi driver? Try to figure it out.
The Bible says souls die. But by this time I realize you don't, along with some others, believe the Bible anyway.
Have a good evening.

 

[Trailblazer]

Still I ask the question how do you get (soul) out of spirit/breath at Ecclesiastes 12:7 ? one scripture at a time please.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The spirit IS the soul.

 

[YoursTrue]

Of course I know that the Bible says that, and I also know what it means, as does any Christian who understands the Bible.

Ezekiel 18:4 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Whenever the Bible says that the soul that sins shall die, that means that soul will not gain eternal life. It does not mean that soul will cease to exist. No soul cannot ever cease to exist because the soul is immortal.

That verse above means that the soul that sins will not have eternal life, which is a state of the soul that is close to God.
That soul will be spiritually dead, but it will continue to exist in the spiritual realm after the body dies.
Only physical things die. A soul cannot die because it is not physical.

The soul is eternal, the body perishes.

When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body.
He was referring to the life of a person (soul) who knows Him and the one true God.

John 17:3 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.

Soul Cannot Die
The Scripture says the spirit, or soul, cannot be annihilated. Though the body may die, the spirit will live on. Death, therefore is not the end of conscious life. It is the separation of the body and the spirit. The spirit, however, lives on in another realm. The body is only the temporary residence of humans.

Jesus said. Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matthew 10:28).

Destroy has the idea of punish, not annihilate. The destruction of the soul means separation from the life of God. Though living, the soul of the unbeliever has no connection whatsoever to God.

Can the Spirit, or Soul, Be Destroyed?

The Bible teaches that humans are made up of both body and spirit. Life begins when the two are united, and life ends when the two are separated. Death Of The

www.blueletterbible.org

The Bible says the soul can and does die. Notice Jesus said there is someone who can destroy soul and body. Take care.