Calvanism leaves me feeling ill

[Kolibri]

Being conscious in hell is a continuation of Satan's lie to Eve. "You positively will not die."

Who do we believe? The liar or God?

 

[Glaurung]

Are you saying that is what you believed or are you mocking the Calvinist belief in that statement?

I agree that the human will is incapable of accepting God without grace, but where I differ is that I also assert that every human being already has sufficient grace to accept God if they so chose to cooperate with that grace. Everyone has grace, (which is entirely from God) but it can be resisted as a result of our freedom. God also has foreknowledge of who will ultimately accept him, but this is not in contradiction to the free choice to cooperate with his freely given grace to all.

To quote the Matrix. "You've already made your choice, you're here to understand why you've made it."

What I'm trying to point out to you is that in Reformed Christianity, the mere fact that you find their soteriology reprehensible, is (according to their reasoning) precisely because you are already reprobate. God has decided not to save you because your salvation is not in his plan. I agree with you that it's a horrendous and cruel understanding of God.

Of course, not all Reformed Christians accept predestination. But the fact is that Calvin and Luther both clearly taught it.

 

[Desert Snake]

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."

Predestination (Calvinism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He didn't say predestined for hell in those words but I can't see how it means otherwise. They were not created for heaven were they?

I'm wondering why you didn't post this question in the Calvinism DIR. Posting something specific like this in a general DIR is just inviting a bunch of /probably/ misinformed "opinions". But o.k.

 

[Spiderman]

I must publicly insult myself by confessing that I did not know that there was a Calvanist DIR

 

[Kolibri]

Do all of the descendants of ham deserve to be cursed and slaves because ham wanted others to see his fathers drunken nakedness?

In particular the curse was on Ham's son Canaan. Evidently it was this grandson of Noah that may have attempted some form of sexual sin with his drunken grandfather. This seems probable as in other places the terms "laying bare" and "seeing the nakedness" of another is connected to incest or some other sexual sin. (Le 18:6-19; 20:17)

In Noah's prophetic words, Shem and Ja'pheth received blessings, Ham received nothing,(perhaps neglected in recompense for his neglect), and Canaan, one of Ham's 3 sons, received the curse. However this curse was not one of damnation, it was of subservience. The Canaanites as a whole proved to be a very sordid and depraved people, perhaps a natural consequence of growing up under the influence of a lustful forefather. And they did prove to be subjugated by the Semitic Israelites and later by the Japhetic powers of Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome.

And yet, there were descendants of Canaan that became worshipers of Jehovah - the Gibeonites are a prominent example. The curse on Canaan did not prevent salvation.
And for the Gibeonites, slavery was not a bad thing. They served the Aaronic priests, thus being a prominent support for Jehovah's arrangement for worship.
By waiting on Jehovah, an attempted genocide by Israel's first human King and his sons was brought to light and justice was meted out.
Men of Gibeon were among those that returned from Babylonian exile in 537 B.C.E. and they had a share in rebuilding Jerusalem's walls.

Their good example of slaving for Jehovah is a wonderful one for us to imitate.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What do you mean by that?

.......^


That's an interesting way of asking a question, don't you think? Nowhere does it say, "I'm probably wrong about this, but........?"

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

How can He save people who, by their sinful nature, have no choice but to rebel against Him?

By drawing them to Him and regenerating them, making them new creations in Christ.

For them to chose God (and for God to pull them) they'll have to believe that their sinful nature does not prevent them from knowing God (hence their nature doesn't make them rebel against God); since that isn't possible (right?) they cannot be saved.

If a person comes to Christ they can be confident that God has saved them and made them into new creations, the old man, the sinful man, is gone, we are made dead to sin.

Not all people with a sinful nature rebel against God. If God is indeed pulling them to Him, they will know; there is no rebellion if God is continuing to pull people towards Him. It's the sinners position (not a denial or bad choice) to realize this and make that choice once he/she knows they are called. Many are not rebelling, they just don't know.

All with a sinful nature rebel. Before being saved, the elect also rebelled. God calls us and regenerates us. Those with a sinful nature will not choose God, it is only when God calls them to Himself and regenerates them will they turn to Him.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

What im saying is that someone who died outside of God's grace and went to Hell a thousand years ago is still suffering for something they did a thousand years ago and a hundred thousand years from now they will have been suffering for something they did a hundred thousand years ago. I can't see that as anything but the epitome of injustice and cruelty!

Words do not express or describe how depressing and horrifying such a reality is!

It is a horrifying reality, I'd agree, and your objection doesn't seem to be one mainly aimed at Calvinism but much of mainstream Christian doctrine regarding Hell.

Words can neither express the infinite holiness and glory of God. Your perception of Hell being an injustice is purely subjective. God is the judge, and when we rebel against Him that is the punishment we deserve.

Jonathan Edwards, one of the great Reformed preachers and theologians, attempted to explain why exactly people deserve infinite punishment. Now, I don't believe it is explicitly explained in detail in the Scriptures as to why exactly people deserve it, but I'll give you his thoughts and see what you think.

“. . . it is not inconsistent with the justice of God to inflict an eternal punishment. To evince this, I shall use only one argument, viz. that sin is heinous enough to deserve such a punishment, and such a punishment is no more than proportionable to the evil or demerit of sin. If the evil of sin be infinite, as the punishment is, then it is manifest that the punishment is no more than proportionable to the sin punished, and is no more than sin deserves. And if the obligation to love, honor, and obey God be infinite, then sin, which is the violation of this obligation, is a violation of infinite obligation, and so is an infinite evil. Again, if God be infinitely worthy of love, honor, and obedience, then our obligation to love, and honor, and obey him is infinitely great. – So that God being infinitely glorious, or infinitely worthy of our love, honor, and obedience, our obligation to love, honor, and obey him (and so to avoid all sin) is infinitely great. Again, our obligation to love, honor, and obey God being infinitely great, sin is the violation of infinite obligation, and so is an infinite evil. Once more, sin being an infinite evil, deserves an infinite punishment. An infinite punishment is no more than it deserves. Therefore such punishment is just, which was the thing to be proved. There is no evading the force of this reasoning, but by denying that God, the sovereign of the universe, is infinitely glorious, which I presume none of my hearers will venture to do.“

 

[muhammad_isa]

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."

Predestination (Calvinism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He didn't say predestined for hell in those words but I can't see how it means otherwise. They were not created for heaven were they?

Did you not read my posts about 'predestination'?

Just because Almighty God knows that some of us go to hell, and some of us go to heaven/paradise, that does NOT mean that Almighty God is choosing for us .. it means that the nature of time is complex !

You understand that Almighty God is as aware of the future as He is of the past, do you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Those with a sinful nature will not choose God, it is only when God calls them to Himself and regenerates them will they turn to Him.

I get what you're saying. They didn't chose to go to Christ. When they made the decision to follow Him, it was God that actually did the pulling not them so they can be born again.

Since those with a sinful nature will not choose God, why and how would they know God chooses them? Do they wait?

I disagree that the Christian cannot do anything towards his own to help in his own salvation. I understand though he can't do it on his own. I see it as He chooses God and God chooses Him. They both have a role in the Christian's salvation.

Calvinism seems to state that God is the only one in control of salvation and by His (God's) will, not by the Christian. Basically, the only choice the Christian has of his own is not to come to Christ.

 

[Shiranui117]

By drawing them to Him and regenerating them, making them new creations in Christ.


If a person comes to Christ they can be confident that God has saved them and made them into new creations, the old man, the sinful man, is gone, we are made dead to sin.


All with a sinful nature rebel. Before being saved, the elect also rebelled. God calls us and regenerates us. Those with a sinful nature will not choose God, it is only when God calls them to Himself and regenerates them will they turn to Him.

So, in other words, if it is only our desire that we rebel against God and sin, and if God draws us to Him and saves us, He is therefore forcing us to be saved against our will. Does that sound about right?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

So, in other words, if it is only our desire that we rebel against God and sin, and if God draws us to Him and saves us, He is therefore forcing us to be saved against our will. Does that sound about right?

Hey Shiranui117, long time. Not sure if you remember me. And that's a very interesting title under your name considering the discussions we used to have over PM, you will have to fill me in on that!

If God was forcing us it wouldn't be grace. Rather our eyes are opened, once we were blind but now we see. In Acts 16:14 we read about Lydia's conversion “The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul.”

A popular Arminian analogy for salvation is that we are drowning and God throws out a rope for us to catch but we don't have to.

In the Calvinist perspective the analogy is more like this, that we are dead at the bottom of the sea and can't hold onto any rope, and God comes down and pulls us up and raises us from death to life. We were dead in our sins, when God saves us He gives us new life and it is a miracle. It is not a denial of will but grace to overcome our sinful nature and open our eyes and hearts to God.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I get what you're saying. They didn't chose to go to Christ. When they made the decision to follow Him, it was God that actually did the pulling not them so they can be born again.

Since those with a sinful nature will not choose God, why and how would they know God chooses them? Do they wait?

Faith. When we have the faith in Jesus that saves us, we know that God has chosen us and saved us.

I disagree that the Christian cannot do anything towards his own to help in his own salvation. I understand though he can't do it on his own. I see it as He chooses God and God chooses Him. They both have a role in the Christian's salvation.

Calvinism seems to state that God is the only one in control of salvation and by His (God's) will, not by the Christian. Basically, the only choice the Christian has of his own is not to come to Christ.

Well, when the Father draws us to the Son, it overcomes our resistances and we gladly choose to follow Jesus, but only first because the Father chose to draw us and give us that grace.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand the second have of your comment. This, though: "Faith. When we have the faith in Jesus that saves us, we know that God has chosen us and saved us." I don't believe faith is enough to know one is saved. I always contend that we have a role in our salvation for it to be solid. When I was in a protestant church I knew nothing of salvation just the concept and what scripture talked about it. There was rarely any action in unison with the belief and preaching. We had Bible study, of course. Different activities, et cetera.. the closest was Bible sermon which is somewhat different than Sunday sermon.

What I like about the Catholic Church is that they work in unison with God and of course still believe in God's graces. So the works that protestants speak against, is the solid confirmation (like the sacraments) of a Catholic's inner salvation. While God is still pulling him/her towards Him and give His graces; they, still have to with God to receive those graces (not for God in return for graces).

That's probably a different concept than that of Calvinism. I personally didn't feel faith was enough to receive God's graces. It was like an empty relationship. I think I understand Calvinism; I just don't agree with it, if I'm understanding it correctly.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I understand the second have of your comment. This, though: "Faith. When we have the faith in Jesus that saves us, we know that God has chosen us and saved us." I don't believe faith is enough to know one is saved. I always contend that we have a role in our salvation for it to be solid. When I was in a protestant church I knew nothing of salvation just the concept and what scripture talked about it. There was rarely any action in unison with the belief and preaching. We had Bible study, of course. Different activities, et cetera.. the closest was Bible sermon which is somewhat different than Sunday sermon.

What I like about the Catholic Church is that they work in unison with God and of course still believe in God's graces. So the works that protestants speak against, is the solid confirmation (like the sacraments) of a Catholic's inner salvation. While God is still pulling him/her towards Him and give His graces; they, still have to with God to receive those graces (not for God in return for graces).

That's probably a different concept than that of Calvinism. I personally didn't feel faith was enough to receive God's graces. It was like an empty relationship. I think I understand Calvinism; I just don't agree with it, if I'm understanding it correctly.

I didn't accept Calvinism because it sounded nice to me, but because of the scriptural truth of the doctrines. After submitting to the Scriptures I came to appreciate it and see the beauty of it. I am well aware of the Catholic viewpoint, I nearly became a Catholic myself, but don't find it scriptural.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I tell people, though some don't want to hear it, Catholicism isn't for everyone. If I went back to the Church, I'd probably be Orthodox Catholic rather than Roman. I received my sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church but I stopped practicing because I realized what Christianity really was about beyond concept and reading scripture and found in my heart, I love the practice, to me it was spiritual, but I heard this quote: "You can't believe because you want to believe. You have to believe the facts they tell you are true."

I also found it unnerving that Christianity (no other faith excluded) was involved in many blood sheds. I didn't want to be part of that history. Christianity is a generational faith. So many denomination obscured the culture wrapped behind it. So it's hard to know the true intent of scripture beyond what two people say they feel in their heart is true even though they come to different conclusions from the same source!

I know what I believe when it comes to God. However, what makes me not a Christian in the majority definition of the word is I don't believe Jesus is God. A lot of fancy things described in the Bible people actually believe; and, I believe if you are not one in belief with your brothers and sisters, you are not in unity with Christ.

That's why I felt I needed the Church; of course, it's not for all. If not for the Roman influence, I'd say I wish protestants can see the beautiful of the Church relation to scripture. Then again, there's personal preferences too. /shrugs/

I didn't accept Calvinism because it sounded nice to me, but because of the scriptural truth of the doctrines. After submitting to the Scriptures I came to appreciate it and see the beauty of it. I am well aware of the Catholic viewpoint, I nearly became a Catholic myself, but don't find it scriptural.

 

[Nimblewill]

Calvinism- God could save all He simply does not want to.
Arminianism- God wants to save all He simply cannot.

Neither are biblical. They are correct in what they affirm and incorrect in what they deny.

Both however can be taken from the Bible.

 

[Blackmarch]

So this whole idea that God made some people vessels of wrath predestined for hell just makes me sick! How is that fair to the people that through no choice of their own were simply created destined for eternal misery and separation from God.

So, if you are a Calvinist, im not saying you make me ill , but rather the idea that people are created destined for hell and those very people could be your son or daughter or spouse or friend, is an idea that just makes me feel sick when I think of it as possibly the truth.

It just isn't fair to them who didn't decide to be that way that they should have to suffer eternal punishment for just being who they are and who they were created to be. I feel there are many beautiful depictions of God, but fail to see the beauty in Calvinism. Maybe you can help me out?

then search out other sects, study, pray, and feel what spirit you get there. Ask God if you should go elsewhere.

 

[we-live-now]

So this whole idea that God made some people vessels of wrath predestined for hell just makes me sick! How is that fair to the people that through no choice of their own were simply created destined for eternal misery and separation from God.

So, if you are a Calvinist, im not saying you make me ill , but rather the idea that people are created destined for hell and those very people could be your son or daughter or spouse or friend, is an idea that just makes me feel sick when I think of it as possibly the truth.

It just isn't fair to them who didn't decide to be that way that they should have to suffer eternal punishment for just being who they are and who they were created to be. I feel there are many beautiful depictions of God, but fail to see the beauty in Calvinism. Maybe you can help me out?

Calvinism is a total LIE but mainly because of that ONE point you mention. God does make specific groups of people that are "vessels of wrath" for a specific and set time, but the true "vessel" of wrath is the part of ALL of us that is under law (God's wrath) which is our outer, natural man. He is under LAW and is spiritually DEAD because of it.

See Romans 8:10. Our body is dead because of sin. No reviving it. See Romans 4:15. The law always brings God's WRATH. We have been under his wrath since he put us under law in Genesis 2:17. That's right as soon as he gave the command, we were under law and his wrath. That started death! Not when "Adam" sinned as we are taught. Adam didn't "plunge" man into death. God did when he put man under law by giving the command "do not eat from that tree". Man can not fulfill the law. Only God can. Man dies 100% of the time under law.

We are truly made up of TWO people. One spiritual inside and one natural on the outside. 2 Cor 4:16 The natural one is under law (death) since the Lord God gave the command to "not eat of the tree". This outer man will die for all people. It/he/she is the TRUE vessel of wrath that will die 100% of the time.

My strong conviction is that Calvinism has most things correct except that some are predestined for "hell". "Hell" is not what man has taught us it is. It's not "forever punishment" but rather "an age of refining and purifying" until we "die enough" to repent and finally believe the truth and accept his free gift of eternal life. Some of us are in HELL right now in God's Holy fire via the trials and tribulations of THIS LIFE. Mark 9:49 says "ALL will be SALTED (purified) with fire". No one will get away from the fire of God. It is how his true being and FULL LIFE appears to us in the natural.

God's fire is NOT LIKE NATURAL FIRE. It doesn't destroy the person, but really reveals who they really are (which Christians call the "second birth"). It makes things pure and removes the "dross" and causes them to be "reborn" spiritually from within from God's seed who is his son. Here is the Strong's definition of the word "fire" as in "Lake of fire". It's the word "pur" where we get English "pure" and "purify" from.

pur: fire
Original Word: πῦρ, πυρός, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pur
Phonetic Spelling: (poor)
Short Definition: fire, trials
Definition: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
HELPS Word-studies
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself

God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers (for all not just "believers") can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.

[This is illustrated by God's fire burning continuously at the entrance of the Tabernacle where the priests made sweet-savor offerings. Compare Lev 6:12,13 with 1 Pet 2:5,9.]

We need not fear God's "fire". It's holy and GOOD. More like strong, loving discipline that causes us to repent and accept his free gift of faith so we will live. See Hebrews 12:7-11. This is what God's Holy fire does. God bless.

 

[wgw]

I've always agreed with John Wesley who said to Gworge Whitefield, the Calvinist Methodist with whom he famously "agreed to disagree" that "Your God is my devil."

The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem at a special synod anathematized Calvinism and declared John Calvin a heresiarch. Thus the Orthodox Church views him in the same way we view Arius, Marcion, Valentinus, and indeed Simon Magus. That said his Institues is a better read than most people give it credit for. But unlike Luther, who thought the Orthodox would support him (his disciples found out otherwise), Calvin in his institutes declared himself an enemy of the Orthodox Church by saying "The Greeks ... are the worst idolaters of all." So whereas the Orthodox Church has on occasion had good relations with Lutherans (the main strain being the wars between Sweden and Russia, but consider the harmonius relations between Orthodox and Lutherans in Finland and Estonia), the Calvinists have had it out for us since day one, even forging a false confession of Calvinism in the name of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (which prompted the Jerusalem synod; scholars agree the confession was a forgery).

One interesting website is the Orthodox Reformed Bridge. I'm on an iPad that tends to let my comments disappear and the URL escapes me, but Google it. The site contains Orthodox apologetics directed at Calvinists.

But let me close by saying the Orthodox Church positively denies that our God, who is Love, three persons United in a perpetual movement of love to form one coeternal and consubstantial God, the glorious life giving Trinity, and the ideal blue print for human relations, would ever foreordain anyone to damnation. The omniscience of God implies he knows who will falter, but we know God to be merciful, and God did grant his creatures free will. Perhaps God even intentionally does not use his omniscience or uses his omnipotence to override it so as to ensure human free will is not compromised. God wants us to be like Him, to "be perfect even as your Father is perfect" and Heaven rejoices over the return of a sinner. God is love and to love is to be like God. In the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, the priest sings "Let us love one another, that with one accord we may confess" (our belief in the Holy Trinity).