Can a Fictional Story Have a Connection to Reality?

[Sheldon]

Are all ideas non-real? Is morality non-real?

Ideas are abstract, but we can also hold an idea of what is not abstract but real, and morality is certainly abstract, and subjective, though the consequences are real.

 

[Polymath257]

Where you went wrong is, you have a bias already built in and you use ridicule to feel good. Thats where you went wrong. If you asked the question like a decent person who is honestly asking a question, you would have got a decent answer.

Have a good day.

What bias do you think that I have?

If it is a bias against taking fiction as reality, then I fully agree. If it is a bias in favor of truth and against falsehoods, then I agree. If it is a bias against vague statements that actually mean nothing but make people feel good, I generally agree.

But you are the one saying those who say that the Bible has fictional stories are missing the point.

So, what is the point? You have yet to say.

 

[1213]

If your answer is yes, then by what means do fictional stories connect to reality?

Fictional story can have non-fictional places and characters. And more than that, I think fictional story can give correct lesson for example about good and right.

 

[firedragon]

If it is a bias against taking fiction as reality

So who said its "reality"? Strawman again? Cmon Poly. You can do better than that even if you just wish to argue.

But you are the one saying those who say that the Bible has fictional stories are missing the point.

Absolutely missing the point. Already explained.

 

[Polymath257]

So who said its "reality"? Strawman again? Cmon Poly. You can do better than that even if you just wish to argue.

I really do not understand what you are trying to say, then. Could you be more clear? Maybe state it again in a different way?

Absolutely missing the point. Already explained.

Again, then, *what is the point?*. You clearly said what I said you said. How is that missing the point?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

So, it is a question you can't answer?

So you think of the moral domain as some sort of physical substance or property?

Again, associating reality with external or physical is not it. Reality is what we are more or less in accordance with.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Which aspect is 'real'? The characters in the story are not real. The words and ideas are real. To be fictional means it does not correspond, in some way, with reality. Something about it is not real.

A story has to have a character and an action, so it includes morality (how to act). Because every story involves morality, every story is real.

Again, unless you don’t agree that morality should correspond to reality.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

No.

Morality is useful or not. It corresponds to our goals and desires, not necessarily to reality.

But, if you want to make good decisions, it is good for your ideas about the world to correspond to reality. Your ideas about morality and whether they are useful will depend on your society, for example.

Useful is just a variation of saying better or more desirable. If you agree that it’s useful to be in accordance with reality, then you are crossing the line into my view of reality. You are including morality in the domain of reality. Can’t you see that?

I realize this is hard for someone with a hardened scientific, materialist view.

 

[Nakosis]

Yes, this is becoming tedious, but it seems necessary. Can a fictional story set in an imaginary location with made up characters and made up events have a connection to reality?

What are you really trying to ask or what point are you trying to make.
Any story, imo, fiction or otherwise needs some connection to reality in the mind of the author/reader in order for the reader to be able to relate tot the story.
I would say reality is the basic foundation from which all of our thinking emerges.

 

[Nakosis]

We agree that morality is real.

Morality cannot be stripped away from a story that a human being is engaged with, even a fictional story. And any fictional story that is known, a human being is engaged with by definition.

Therefore, if it is assumed that morality is real, then there is no fictional story that isn’t real.

Morality is about feelings. Stories can affect how you feel.
The words of the story are real. How they make you feel are real.
That is the point of most stories, imo, to make you feel something.

Not every aspect of the story has to be real though. Characters, places, names, events can be made up.
For example I can create a fictional person but it would be based on what I know of reality.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Morality is about feelings. Stories can affect how you feel.
The words of the story are real. How they make you feel are real.
That is the point of most stories, imo, to make you feel something.

Not every aspect of the story has to be real though. Characters, places, names, events can be made up.
For example I can create a fictional person but it would be based on what I know of reality.

What is most affecting and captivating to us about a story are the actions and relationships. In other words, the morality is what we most care about in a story. Not the facts.

 

[Nakosis]

What is most affecting and captivating to us about a story are the actions and relationships. In other words, the morality is what we most care about in a story. Not the facts.

Sure, but were you say morality, I say feelings. We internally feel what is "right". That imo, is where our morals come from.

However I don't think we all relate to a story with the same feelings. We can feel differently about the same story.
Like with the Bible, some see God as unjust. Others see God as the embodiment of justice. Some don't feel any relationship to the Bible at all.

We are all individuals and relate to the stories we hear individually.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Sure, but were you say morality, I say feelings. We internally feel what is "right". That imo, is where our morals come from.

However I don't think we all relate to a story with the same feelings. We can feel differently about the same story.
Like with the Bible, some see God as unjust. Others see God as the embodiment of justice. Some don't feel any relationship to the Bible at all.

We are all individuals and relate to the stories we hear individually.

Yeah. The main purpose of this thread was to push back against the idea that because a story is considered fictional, that means it isn’t real and should be taken less seriously.

 

[Polymath257]

What is most affecting and captivating to us about a story are the actions and relationships. In other words, the morality is what we most care about in a story. Not the facts.

That is the case for fiction, but not for nonfiction.

In nonfiction, the facts are crucial.

 

[Polymath257]

Yeah. The main purpose of this thread was to push back against the idea that because a story is considered fictional, that means it isn’t real and should be taken less seriously.

Let's give an example.

Suppose there is a story about a public figure that paints them in a negative light. It turns out that the story is false.

Are you saying that the story being false is not very good reason to not take the story seriously?

If so, I would strongly disagree. Being false is exactly why it should not be taken seriously.

 

[firedragon]

What are you really trying to ask or what point are you trying to make.
Any story, imo, fiction or otherwise needs some connection to reality in the mind of the author/reader in order for the reader to be able to relate tot the story.
I would say reality is the basic foundation from which all of our thinking emerges.

Hmm. Very interesting.

Im sure you know Jordan Peterson. I remember vividly he was speaking about this taking characters from some book as example. It was quite profound. You should take a look at it if you could.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Let's give an example.

Suppose there is a story about a public figure that paints them in a negative light. It turns out that the story is false.

Are you saying that the story being false is not very good reason to not take the story seriously?

If so, I would strongly disagree. Being false is exactly why it should not be taken seriously.

I’m speaking to story within art, culture, and religion. Not journalism. Within journalism, we agree that facts are most important.

 

[metis]

The only fiction I ever read is what's called "historical fiction", and Les Misérables is one of my favorites.

 

[Polymath257]

I’m speaking to story within art, culture, and religion. Not journalism. Within journalism, we agree that facts are most important.

In other words, you are interested in fiction. And, within fiction, the facts are less relevant than the message.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

In other words, you are interested in fiction. And, within fiction, the facts are less relevant than the message.

I’m interested in higher quality of life, which necessitates paying more attention and looking deeper.