Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[Thief]

Hello and thank you,
The problem i think is the ignorance about the power of believing.
If you underestimate this power, you can believe anything and hold it as the truth.
When you understand you could believe anything you see of hear, then you understand it would be wiser to investigate what you see of hear before you believe it.
And thats why many religion followers never fought their spirital battle and then they stay prison in their own minds.
Because they see there own religion as the truth.

The spirital battle starts when someone is forced to look at the facts of his own religion.
And after you see some facts, then you cant denied the truth.
its like wake up out of a bad dream.
Only problem is many will fight til death to keep dreaming.

Stick around.

 

[greentwiga]

I will reply to you in reverse order - with your last being replied first.


How do you get this figure of "13,000 years"?

Meaning, what or whose is your source(s)?

I know that some groups of young earth creationists believe that the 6-day creation, began about 6000 years ago (or about 4000 BCE), while others believed that it began 13,000 years ago, because of 2 Peter 3:8 (so each day in Genesis 1 amount to a period (or "Age") of a thousand years).

I think mixing the verse 2 Peter 3:8 with Genesis 1, bring even illogical problems.

But you are saying that Adam was created 13,000 years ago...well, at least that what I think you are saying, not that the 1st Light was created (ie 1st Day) in 13,000 years. So I'd have to ask for your sources?



So you are saying that a gap of 1135 years between the time Noah boarded the Ark and the birth of Abraham.

Most English translations of the OT bible are based on the Masoretic Text (MT). Only those followed Greek or Eastern Orthodox churches followed the OT Septuagint. And judging by the 2 main versions or editions of the Septuagint, this gap (flood to Abraham's birth) is about 1072 years (Codex Alexanrinus) or 1172 years (Codex Vaticanus).

So again, I would have to ask for your source(s).

Thank you. I didn't know about the Septuagint's calculations. I just added up the total ages for each man to get an upper limit. I added the age of each father at his son's birth to get a lower limit. I expect the flood and the garden to be somewhere in between those limits. I know what we who live now understand what is meant by a man who has a son when he is thirty and lives 50 years after that. I am researching what people in the past might have meant. Sometimes, our assumptions based on our modern definitions are wrong. Currently, I have no solid justification. That is why I am interested in the Septuagint passages that you mentioned.

 

[outhouse]

Thank you. I didn't know about the Septuagint's calculations. I just added up the total ages for each man to get an upper limit. I added the age of each father at his son's birth to get a lower limit. I expect the flood and the garden to be somewhere in between those limits. I know what we who live now understand what is meant by a man who has a son when he is thirty and lives 50 years after that. I am researching what people in the past might have meant. Sometimes, our assumptions based on our modern definitions are wrong. Currently, I have no solid justification. That is why I am interested in the Septuagint passages that you mentioned.

Im not sure why you trust the geneology of scripture, or any historical aspect of srcipture, when scripture does not even describe their origins anyhwere close to correctly.

We know much was redacted AFTER the return from the Babylonian exile, and much is 5th and 6th century literary creations.

 

[gnostic]

Thank you. I didn't know about the Septuagint's calculations. I just added up the total ages for each man to get an upper limit.

Your calculation are wrong, then.

You don't use the "total age" of each patriarch . Although, it is important to know at what age each patriarch had died, using this age will not give you a chronological timeline of the pre-Moses timeline, or show when the a creation or flood occur.

To get the timeline from the Masoretic Text-based timeline, you will have to use the age of when each patriarch become a father to the next patriarch (his son). This is the age that you will need to add up, to find the new generation (birth of the new son), or to find when the flood occur or when Abraham receive the covenant, or when Jacob entered Egypt, etc.

Look at Genesis 5:3-11 for example. In red and bold, is the ages you will need to get working timeline:

3 When Adam had lived one hundred thirty years, he became the father of a son in his likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. 4 The days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years; and he had other sons and daughters. 5 Thus all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred thirty years; and he died.

6 When Seth had lived one hundred five years, he became the father of Enosh. 7 Seth lived after the birth of Enosh eight hundred seven years, and had other sons and daughters. 8 Thus all the days of Seth were nine hundred twelve years; and he died.

9 When Enosh had lived ninety years, he became the father of Kenan. 10 Enosh lived after the birth of Kenan eight hundred fifteen years, and had other sons and daughters. 11 Thus all the days of Enosh were nine hundred five years; and he died.

So you will need to use 130, 105 & 90 years. Adding these numbers will give you the timeline of when each was born and when each die.

Note that AM means "anno mundi", the date after creation.

Assuming that Adam was created 0 AM, we need to do the running total of each new generation.

0 + 130 = 130 AM (date of Seth's birth is 130 AM)
130 + 105 = 235 AM (date of birth of Enosh: 235 AM)
235 + 90 = 325 AM (date of birth of Kenan: 325 AM)
​

You don't need to bother to calculate the date of when Adam died, which is the same as his age, hence date of death: 930 AM.

So to calculate the date of when Seth died, you just simple add his age 912 to his date of birth:

130 + 912 = 1042 AM (date of Seth's death: 1042 AM)
​

I have done much of the hard work, in my website Dark Mirror of Heaven, in the Timeline of the Patriarchs page.

Look at the 1st table (Genesis Genealogy), and you will see that I have done the calculations for both Masoretic Text and the Septuagint OT.

My method works also for the Septuagint Genesis.

This table help me calculate other dates in the Genesis in the 2nd table (under The Genesis Chronicle).

From the 1st table (in the Masoretic columns), I know that Noah was born in 1056 AM, and from Genesis 7:6, we know that the Flood occurred when he was 600 years old. So doing a simple arithmetic, we get the date for the Flood in 1656 AM.

Now we know from my 1st table that Abraham was born in 1948 AM, so using the date for the Flood, we get -

1948 AM - 1657 AM = 291 years
​

So Abraham was born 291 years after the flood had ended.

Abraham received the covenant (changed his name from Abram to Abraham, and started the custom of circumcision), when he was age 99, one year before Isaac was born. This is 2047 AM.

All these calculations for the OT translation of the Masoretic Text (MT), because most English translations relied mainly on MT, like the KJV, NIV, NRSV, etc, and not on the Greek Septuagint.

Do you see, greentwiga? This is how calculations should be done.

Of course, most OT books don't always provide the age of when a person become the father to a son, which make it very tricky. Like when Jacob, became father of 11 sons while living in Harran with his father-in-law; I had to make some educated guesses. I had worked out that Levi was born in 2190 AM, Joseph in 2199 AM.

And the genealogy of Moses given in Exodus 6, provide only the ages from Levi to Moses' father. The only way I can figure out the possible date to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt, it is from the verses Exodus 12:40-41:

40 The time that the Israelites had lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years. 41 At the end of four hundred thirty years, on that very day, all the companies of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.

Originally, I had calculated 430 years to 2668 AM, starting at the time when Jacob moved his family to Egypt in 2238 AM, when Jacob was 130. But this date is impossible because that would mean Moses' mother, daughter of Levi, would over 250 years old when she gave birth to Moses.

Amram, grandson of Levi, had married his aunt, Jochebed. Amram & Jochebed were parents to Aaron, Miriam and Moses.

I didn't see Jochebed in the list of children that migrated into Egypt, so I would assume that she was born to Levi, in Egypt. Exodus 6:16 say that Levi lived to 137 years. So with the dates to Levi's birth in 2190 AM, would mean that he moved into Egypt in 2238 AM at age 48, and died in 2327 AM.

Let assume that Jochebed was born on the same year that Levi died in 2327 AM, and Moses was born 80 years before the exodus began, that mean Moses was born in 2588 AM (2668 - 80 = 2588 AM. This would mean that Jochebed was 261 years old when Moses was born.

Obviously I can't use 2238 AM (Jacob in Egypt) , to add 430 years.

Some people recommend Abraham's covenant (1948 AM) as the point of when to add the 430 years.

This would mean -

1948 AM + 430 = 2378 AM (exodus, when Moses was 80)
2378 AM - 80 = 2298 AM (birth of Moses)
​

This mean that the Israelites had only lived in Egypt for 150 years (2378 - 2238 = 150 years).

Subtract 80 years from 150 years, and you will get 70 years. This is the possible age to Jochebed giving birth Moses. 70 is better than 261 years, don't you think?

 

[Thief]

More than a thousand postings.....anyone for topic?

It's all fine and good going about the timeline and history....but....
please note the op.

I still see nothing that takes the Creator out of the creation.

 

[CG Didymus]

More than a thousand postings.....anyone for topic?

It's all fine and good going about the timeline and history....but....
please note the op.

I still see nothing that takes the Creator out of the creation.

Off topic is fine with me. I made the question pretty general, but what I'm really questioning is the fundamental Christian supposed "literal" interpretation of Genesis. They find the devil getting his head stepped on. They find Jesus in the "seed" of the woman. I've heard some say that it didn't rain until the flood and so on.

The timeline is important because so many fundies are also young earthers. If the timeline doesn't work then their interpretation is called into question. But, anyway, all the different views are interesting to hear.

 

[Thief]

Off topic is fine with me. I made the question pretty general, but what I'm really questioning is the fundamental Christian supposed "literal" interpretation of Genesis. They find the devil getting his head stepped on. They find Jesus in the "seed" of the woman. I've heard some say that it didn't rain until the flood and so on.

The timeline is important because so many fundies are also young earthers. If the timeline doesn't work then their interpretation is called into question. But, anyway, all the different views are interesting to hear.

Yeah..I suppose so....

But I thought we were attempting a line drawn.
Can Genesis hold stance?....and the op did lean to 'beginning'.


Well anyway....
I see no means to separate Creator and creation( Cause and effect).
and Chapter Two is not a retelling of Chapter One.
so my take on that is likely a bit radical compared to 'fundies'.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yeah..I suppose so....

But I thought we were attempting a line drawn.
Can Genesis hold stance?....and the op did lean to 'beginning'.


Well anyway....
I see no means to separate Creator and creation( Cause and effect).
and Chapter Two is not a retelling of Chapter One.
so my take on that is likely a bit radical compared to 'fundies'.

I would expect no less from a rogue theologian.

 

[look3467]

The harder one tries to understand what is said in Genesis, or in any other book in the bible can lead to discouragement and doubt about anything the bible states.
It wasn't meant to be understood with human understandings, but rather through spiritual understanding.

Placing simple faith, even the size of a mustard seed is sufficient. God will take it from there and provide needed understanding to satisfy the souls yearnings.

Trying to figure it all out is madness.

The story of creation is...a picture! At some point in "time", cause on earth is the only place in the universe where time exists, God chose to explain Himself through men who were less than perfect.

Giving us a picture of who He is and what relationship we have with Him.

That's all. The rest is mankind's travail and how God intermittently intervened in the affairs of mankind.

Blessings, AJ

 

[outhouse]

The harder one tries to understand what is said in Genesis, or in any other book in the bible can lead to discouragement and doubt about anything the bible states.
It wasn't meant to be understood with human understandings, but rather through spiritual understanding.

Placing simple faith, even the size of a mustard seed is sufficient. God will take it from there and provide needed understanding to satisfy the souls yearnings.

Trying to figure it all out is madness.

The story of creation is...a picture! At some point in "time", cause on earth is the only place in the universe where time exists, God chose to explain Himself through men who were less than perfect.

Giving us a picture of who He is and what relationship we have with Him.

That's all. The rest is mankind's travail and how God intermittently intervened in the affairs of mankind.

Blessings, AJ

Hows about this?


Israelites collected scripture for years, which were collected and copied, and compiled and copied, then copied again, and again, and again.

Then after the exile a few different traditions were compiled together the best they could to keep the peace and satisfy their captors.


It was ancient mens version of what they wanted and hoped their history was, Yes it is a spiritual guide but only in the context that spirit means consciousness, because they really didn't have a word for consciousness.


WE know and understand it was not written as history or science. It should never be used for either because it ruins the beauty your describing in your words.

 

[psychoslice]

Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up? , of course not, we have grown beyond superstation, well I have.

 

[Thief]

Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up? , of course not, we have grown beyond superstation, well I have.

Nay....as stated by a previous poster....God's relationship to Man.
That's not superstition.

And Chapter Two has all the earmarks of a science experiment.

 

[outhouse]

Nay....as stated by a previous poster....God's relationship to Man.
That's not superstition.

says who?

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Nay....as stated by a previous poster....God's relationship to Man.
That's not superstition.

And Chapter Two has all the earmarks of a science experiment.

The ability for people to telepathically communicate with a giant invisible man living in space, so he can use his powers to pull strings and help Tim Tebow win football games, or help Grandma find her car keys in the morning so she can make it to Mass on time... Yeah that's definitely not superstitious.:sarcastic

 

[Thief]

The ability for people to telepathically communicate with a giant invisible man living in space, so he can use his powers to pull strings and help Tim Tebow win football games, or help Grandma find her car keys in the morning so she can make it to Mass on time... Yeah that's definitely not superstitious.:sarcastic

I note your sarcasm.
But given circumstances....I have experience that would have ended badly had I failed to respond.

I am living on 'borrowed time'.

As for the items described above.....
If it comes to pass that you are NOT able to communicate with Something Greater....
any pending circumstance could just run you over.

I don't see the Spirit as frivolous.
I suspect the angels pick and choose points of assistance.

 

[outhouse]

I suspect the angels pick and choose points of assistance.

The devil is in no hurry for the ones he is sure of.

 

[Thief]

The devil is in no hurry for the ones he is sure of.

And you have read Job?......right?

oh, that's right.....that's not history!

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

And you have read Job?......right?

oh, that's right.....that's not history!

At least you got one thing right.

 

[greentwiga]

The harder one tries to understand what is said in Genesis, or in any other book in the bible can lead to discouragement and doubt about anything the bible states.
It wasn't meant to be understood with human understandings, but rather through spiritual understanding.

Placing simple faith, even the size of a mustard seed is sufficient. God will take it from there and provide needed understanding to satisfy the souls yearnings.

Trying to figure it all out is madness.

The story of creation is...a picture! At some point in "time", cause on earth is the only place in the universe where time exists, God chose to explain Himself through men who were less than perfect.

Giving us a picture of who He is and what relationship we have with Him.

That's all. The rest is mankind's travail and how God intermittently intervened in the affairs of mankind.

Blessings, AJ

Actually, the harder I try to understand Genesis, the better it makes sense. I find it is understandable and fits history and science, if you don't stick to every traditional interpretation. It also teaches the spiritual lessons even more clearly and strongly.

 

[outhouse]

And you have read Job?......right?

oh, that's right.....that's not history!

Do you really think that is real?


Do you think the Israelites had a tape recorder up there getting all the details.