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Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It does look that way, doesn't it.

But that present another baggage of problem, if you know what I mean.

According to Christian teaching - or at least in the 2 churches that I nearly joined when I was a teenager - God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

If God was omniscient, or all-knowing, then why experiment in the 1st place, especially if God knew beforehand that they would fail the disobedient test (eating the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, when God told them not to)?

If God was omniscient and knew that they would be tempted to eat the forbidden fruit, then why would he plant the Tree there in the 1st place?

God either wanted them to fail or he is not wise as he led us to believe, especially if this is a test or an experiment.

Having altered the body and reset the mind of Man.....
the 'tree of knowledge event was needed.

Some say it was a test.
I can deal with that.
The terms were simple enough.
Would Man be that creature curious beyond any thread of death?
Would he seek knowledge knowing the acquisition might kill him?

We are that creature.
We actually DID pass the test.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Having altered the body and reset the mind of Man.....
the 'tree of knowledge event was needed.


The human body has been the same for 200,000 years. Just when could Israelites who did not exist before 1200 BC know this?

Our minds have changed little as well.


Im betting you dont have sources either :slap:



Some say it was a test.
I can deal with that.


Theology, mythology, and allegory do

Not some.


Would Man be that creature curious beyond any thread of death?

could you make any sense of this?

If you mean "threat" it is common FEAR that man would like life to go one.

Promises one doesnt have to pay for or prove should be ignored.



Would he seek knowledge knowing the acquisition might kill him?

What? :slap:
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The human body has been the same for 200,000 years. Just when could Israelites who did not exist before 1200 BC know this?

Our minds have changed little as well.


Im betting you dont have sources either :slap:






Theology, mythology, and allegory do

Not some.




could you make any sense of this?

If you mean "threat" it is common FEAR that man would like life to go one.

Promises one doesnt have to pay for or prove should be ignored.





What? :slap:

Obviously...once again.....you jump to retort.
Maybe if you just use an open mind and something other than that history crutch...
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Obviously...once again.....you jump to retort.
Maybe if you just use an open mind and something other than that history crutch...

Do you have a problem with the reality of history?


Or do you prefer a created mythological history?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Do you have a problem with the reality of history?


Or do you prefer a created mythological history?

No problem with either one.....proper speech to the proper forum.

Genesis works for me.
I like the science in it.

You can keep your disbelief and your history.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
How it works for you is "NOT" the question though.



This is about how a literal Genesis holds up. Scientifically and historically, it does not.
So the text lacks the chronological scheme you insist upon.
So what of it?

I see plenty of science in it.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
No it is fact.

IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution



We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:
  1. In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
  2. Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
  3. Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
  4. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin

I believe it is a fact that some people believe the theory is fact but the statement made by the IAP is that their theory is based on fact.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
But don't you think putting the flood so far back in time (your 3050 BCE), would also put everything else after the flood 600+ years back in time.

Everything indication put Abraham, and Jacob & co in the 1st half of 2nd millennium BCE (so about 1900-1500 BCE). And so would Moses, also be pushed into the late 3rd millennium BCE. David and all the kings that followed, and even the fall of Jerusalem and Exile would happen in the 2nd millennium BCE, not in the 1st half of 1st millennium BCE.

There are only 291 years between the end of Flood (1657 AM) and birth of Abraham (1948 AM).

3050 BCE would mean that Abraham would be born about 2760 BCE and his death would be dated to 2585 BCE. Jacob would have die in Egypt (2255 AM), in 2451 BCE.

It would also mean that Moses didn't lead Israelites out of Egypt till somewhere between 2229 (if you use Abraham's covenant (2047 AM) - Genesis 17) and 2038 BCE (Jacob entering Egypt (2255 AM), Genesis 47:9), depending on when you would put 430 years of Exodus 12:40-41.

You can't expect your dating of the flood (3050 BCE) to not disrupt have timeline of the bible. It would mean that Jesus have born and die in the late 2nd millennium BCE, before the Roman civilisation existed.

And this is just using the Masoretic Text as source, to dating the timeline. I have not used attempted to use any versions of the Septuagint to calculate the timeline. The Masoretic Text put the Flood to 1656 AM, but the Septuagint, varied, depending if you are using the Alexandrinus Codex - 2262 AM - or the Vaticanus Codex - 2242 AM; this is only 20 years difference between Alexandrinus and Vaticanus. And there is 100 years difference between Alexandrinus and Vaticanus with regarding to the birth of Adam. So which version do I use?

I don't have full translations of either Septuagint versions, so I can't really confirm these figures, I have only used critical translation of the Septuagint from NETS (New English Translation of the Septuagint), which used several different versions (including older papyri of the Septuagint), which is more of hinder than helpful when trying to calculate the dates.

I believe my Bible puts the flood about 2400BC. I agree with the timeline that says the Exodus occurred about 1400BC and that there were 300 years of captivity. My Bible says 430 years of captivity but maybe they include Joseph's time in Egypt, but I don't know why ther would be a discrepancy. It is tracing back from Abraham that is difficult and the reason for some people to date thngs earlier and others later.

So perhaps my memory is faulty and the 3800BC date that I thought was the flood was actually the creation of the Adamic race.

Ussher's proposed date of 4004 BC differed little from other Biblically based estimates, such as those of Jose ben Halafta (3761 BC), Bede (3952 BC), Ussher's near-contemporary Scaliger (3949 BC), Johannes Kepler (3992 BC) or Sir Isaac Newton (c. 4000 BC).[1] Ussher's specific choice of starting year may have been influenced by the then-widely-held belief that the Earth's potential duration was 6,000 years (4,000 before the birth of Christ and 2,000 after), corresponding to the six days of Creation, on the grounds that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8). This view remains to be held as recently as AD 2000,[2][3] six thousand years after 4004 BC.
- Wikipedia: Ussher chronology

Somehow though my memory has Adamic creation as 4800BC. This equates to the Samarran Culture of Northern Mesopotamia which might indicate a different people from indigenous people who according to archeology were on the site from 10,000 BC.

The Samarra culture is a Chalcolithic archaeological culture in northern Mesopotamia that is roughly dated to 5500–4800 BCE.

- Wikipedia: Samarra culture
 

gnostic

The Lost One
muffled said:
I believe God knows everything.

Yes, that's your opinion.

Belief, or what you believe, is nothing more than an opinion, that may or may not be true.

Both Genesis 1 & 2 and that of Job 38 - 40 (God's so-called reply), clearly demonstrated that if God did exist, he know nothing about natural science; this God knows no more about nature or natural phenomenons than the authors of either Genesis or the Book of Job.

That for instance this verse, from Job 38:
Job 38:22 said:
"Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail,
What are these "storehouses"?

The ancient people didn't understand where snow or hails come from or what cause it to snow or hail, so they provided primitive explanation to natural occurrences of snow or hail, with the images of storehouse.

The "storehouses of snow" or "storehouses of hail".

Science in meteorology provided a far more accurate explanation to the Earth's climate than god's hollow boast that he is the One who cause the sky to snow or hail, or anywhere else in the bible.

Seriously, can morning stars "sing" (Job 38:7)? People used to believe stars were angels, but we know now that's not the case.

And do the sea have "doors" or "womb" (Job 38:8)?

Granted, Job 38-40 give us poetic description of God's supposed awesome power, but none of these verses provide scientific or factual explanations to nature.

Job 38-40 only provide entertaining myth and primitive superstition; and they do so with metaphors and similes. To ignore scientific theories of nature, and to treat biblical accounts, is to remain ignorant to reality.

muffled said:
Scientists and professors do not know everything.

No one claim that scientists or professors to know everything, but each individual scientists or professors, know what they know in their respective fields.

And sure, they can make mistakes, and sometimes, theories can become obsolete, but with rigorous testings and observant to scientific method and theory is subject to peer review, errors can be corrected, theory either be updated or replaced, because science is all about basing conclusion on the evidence, and not on blind faith.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I believe my Bible puts the flood about 2400BC. I agree with the timeline that says the Exodus occurred about 1400BC and that there were 300 years of captivity. My Bible says 430 years of captivity but maybe they include Joseph's time in Egypt, but I don't know why ther would be a discrepancy. It is tracing back from Abraham that is difficult and the reason for some people to date thngs earlier and others later.

So perhaps my memory is faulty and the 3800BC date that I thought was the flood was actually the creation of the Adamic race.

Ussher's proposed date of 4004 BC differed little from other Biblically based estimates, such as those of Jose ben Halafta (3761 BC), Bede (3952 BC), Ussher's near-contemporary Scaliger (3949 BC), Johannes Kepler (3992 BC) or Sir Isaac Newton (c. 4000 BC).[1] Ussher's specific choice of starting year may have been influenced by the then-widely-held belief that the Earth's potential duration was 6,000 years (4,000 before the birth of Christ and 2,000 after), corresponding to the six days of Creation, on the grounds that "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8). This view remains to be held as recently as AD 2000,[2][3] six thousand years after 4004 BC.
- Wikipedia: Ussher chronology

Somehow though my memory has Adamic creation as 4800BC. This equates to the Samarran Culture of Northern Mesopotamia which might indicate a different people from indigenous people who according to archeology were on the site from 10,000 BC.

The Samarra culture is a Chalcolithic archaeological culture in northern Mesopotamia that is roughly dated to 5500–4800 BCE.

- Wikipedia: Samarra culture


Yet there is no evidence at all for a exodus, and no serious credible historian even thinks it has happened. Every credible scholar claims it as theology and a literary creation.

Even Israel's best archeologist claim Israelites factually evolved from displaced Canaanites AFTER 1200 BC


Can you explain why we only see a slow migration of people to the highlands of Israel between 1200 BC and 1000BC ???



There is no mystery about a flood. We know there was a river flood and mythology developed afterwards. Exactly where Israelites claimed their flood came from. The wording is also exact in places. "two by two" and much more.
 

greentwiga

Active Member
It is interesting to look at the Septuagint's ages. It was translated from a Hebrew text that came before the Masoretic. It sometimes agrees with the Samaritan Torah, which was also earlier Hebrew version.

The Septuagint says it was 440 years from the Exodus to Solomon's 4th year. This puts the Exodus about 1406 BC. It then says that it was 430 years in Egypt and Canaan. This puts Abraham's 75th year in 1836. The ages Shem and his descendents became parents at ages that were often 100 years more than the Masoretic text. This puts the flood about 2983 BC. The time of Adam is similarly earlier, 5,223 BC. I am intrigued with the flood date. The date for Adam? I don't read the Bible as saying that Adam and Eve were the first Humans, but many generations had passed since the creation of Humans in Gen 1. This opens the door for the possibility that the Bible allows for evolution.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
but many generations had passed since the creation of Humans in Gen 1.

This is something no Israelite could ever answer with credibility.


Homo Sapiens have been on the planet for 200,000 years. This was outside their known knowledge.

These were people who followed mythology to explain the history they did not know, that we now know with certainty.


This opens the door for the possibility that the Bible allows for evolution.

It does not in my opinion.

There is nothing at all in any biblical text that even partially eludes to as evolution, actually it states the opposite.

The date for Adam?

What is the problem with a 5th and 6th century literary creation, written in mythology influence by the Babylonians?


This puts the flood about 2983 BC.

Your getting warmer! Your getting hot!


There was a flood in 2900 BC this flood is attested and really factually happened.

It was a terrible epic flood when the Euphrates overflowed its banks and took out these civilizations that had build cities and villages next to its bank not knowing about 500 or even 5000 year flood cycles.




Why try to fit mythology into reality, when we can look at reality and see exactly where the mythology came from? :shrug:
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
If God doesn't know everything....then no one does.

That's why the tree of knowledge event took place.
God WANTED TO KNOW if the alteration He made took hold.

Had Man become that creature WANTING TO KNOW.....even with a death waiting as consequence?

And wasn't Eve told....you will became as 'they' are......
 

outhouse

Atheistically
That's why the tree of knowledge event took place.
God WANTED TO KNOW if the alteration He made took hold.

..

Oh so he is not all knowing, and has to check his work for errors.

Nice! :facepalm:



Why try to fit mythology into reality, when we can look at reality and see exactly where the mythology came from?
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
If God doesn't know everything....then no one does.

That's why the tree of knowledge event took place.
God WANTED TO KNOW if the alteration He made took hold.
There's a contradiction above. Can you find it?

Had Man become that creature WANTING TO KNOW.....even with a death waiting as consequence?

And wasn't Eve told....you will became as 'they' are......
I'm confused... :areyoucra
 
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