Can any here offer a solution to the middle east conflicts between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah?

[icehorse]

Because they have been living there continuosly, since before some of it was granted to the Jews by the league of nations. Long before the state of Israel existed.
Prior to that there had been no Jewish state since it's destruction and disbandment by the Roman empire. if the bible stories are true the Jews acquired the land by conquest after escaping Egypt. They subsequently established two nations of Judah to the north and israelites took the land of the Canaanites to the south. They held the land until defeated and taken into captivity by the Babylonians.
Eventually they regained their freedom until once again defeated and dispersed by the Romans.

Although some Jews have continued to live in the region as subjects of other nations they had not done so as a state until May 1948. When Ben Gurion declared the establishment of the State of Israel.
Until then the entire area, known as Palestine, was governed by the UK under a charter established by the league of nations prior to the British mandate it had been ruled since the middle 16th. Century by the Ottoman empire.

While it is clear that for a relatively short period from the iron age onward some of the lands had been conquered by the various tribes of Israel. The lands have been largely ruled by other people's for a majority of history

But they've also lived in parts of Jordan and Egypt for the same amounts of time, correct?

And if we use your approach (which has some merit), then there are a host of other groups in the region who deserve a homeland.

 

[metis]

I tend to believe that the only "solution" is to neutralize Iran so it stops supporting its many proxies. However, talk is easy, so...

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Not even close, and not really very accurate. Jews have been living in these areas since before there even was an Islam, so if we use your logic, your conclusions don't hold up.

My point is that I don't think there are any good, logical reasons why the border lines in this region have been drawn the way they are drawn. Many groups have more land than they inhabited traditionally and many groups have less. So most people fall back to just accepting arbitrary lines drawn by the UN, and they randomly pick some start date, even though over the years the UN has drawn many different maps.

Most people would accept Israel's own declared start date of 1948. As before that there were no accepted borders between the Palestinians and the Jews.
Since then they have taken lands from the Palestinians on a regular basis.
Jordan had become independent in 1946.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Jews have been living in these areas since before there even was an Islam, ...

As have non-Jews, typically in far larger numbers.

 

[ChristineM]

Nearly everybody here hopes that all innocent civilians in Israel, Lebanon and Gaza may be supported, protected, in safety, rehomed and given food, water and medical supplies.

Each side hates the other fiercely.
So can anybody here offer any suggestions for ending these dreadful conflicts?

....because I have not got a clue.

Yes but no way it'll work out.

Everyone get back to their original boarders, stop bombing each other and killing each other. Stop stealing land (and return stolen land). Recognise each othere as having a right to exist. Return prisoners And grow up, behave like adults and not greedy children.

Ah well, like i said, it'll never work.

 

[icehorse]

Yes but no way it'll work out.

Everyone get back to their original boarders, stop bombing each other and killing each other. Stop stealing land (and return stolen land). Recognise each othere as having a right to exist. Return prisoners And grow up, behave like adults and not greedy children.

Ah well, like i said, it'll never work.

All due respect, as I studied this, I think it's friggin hard to determine "original borders".

So in your opinion, what the origianl borders, and why?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

But they've also lived in parts of Jordan and Egypt for the same amounts of time, correct?

And if we use your approach (which has some merit), then there are a host of other groups in the region who deserve a homeland.

The Jewish diaspora has lived pretty much everywhere since their defeat by the Romans. Their return to Palestine in any significant numbers occurred mostly in the twentieth century. It was only after WW2 that they became any thing like a majority in what is now Israel.
Even now there are more Jews living in the USA than in Israel. Perhaps they should all move there.

 

[ChristineM]

All due respect, as I studied this, I think it's friggin hard to determine "original borders".

So in your opinion, what the origianl borders, and why?

Lets say 1948.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

All due respect, as I studied this, I think it's friggin hard to determine "original borders".

So in your opinion, what the origianl borders, and why?

In all history up until 1948 they never did have settled borders.
During the few occasions that they did govern themselves they were in constant conflict with their neighbours. Historical maps are available to show the various borders through time. Just as there are showing the growth of their borders since 1948. Is all very well documented.
Their only agreed borders as a state, were those that they claimed themselves in 1948.
Prior to that, since Roman times, the borders in the region were those of the various rulers combined territories, which took no account of the Jewish population in deciding them.

In comparison the borders of the USA, as we know it today, did not settle until the islands of Hawaii became the last state to join the U.S. on August 21, 1959.

Countie's borders are always in flux, you can only say where a border was at a particular time.

A one time the UK governed one third of the world, and controlled even more.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Your answer......how many deaths do you estimate would be caused by 'total war until total surrender'?

It's been going on this long people are sick of it I think one way or another there's only one way to settle it and that's why people go to war.

 

[oldbadger]

Not even close, and not really very accurate. Jews have been living in these areas since before there even was an Islam, so if we use your logic, your conclusions don't hold up.

Where do you live?
How long have your people been where you live?
How far back do you want to go?

My point is that I don't think there are any good, logical reasons why the border lines in this region have been drawn the way they are drawn. Many groups have more land than they inhabited traditionally and many groups have less. So most people fall back to just accepting arbitrary lines drawn by the UN, and they randomly pick some start date, even though over the years the UN has drawn many different maps.

Just how many lives are your ideas going to cost?

 

[oldbadger]

Yes but no way it'll work out.

Everyone get back to their original boarders, stop bombing each other and killing each other. Stop stealing land (and return stolen land). Recognise each othere as having a right to exist. Return prisoners And grow up, behave like adults and not greedy children.

Ah well, like i said, it'll never work.

Yes..... Not exactly a diplomat's cake-walk.

 

[oldbadger]

It's been going on this long people are sick of it I think one way or another there's only one way to settle it and that's why people go to war.

Hmmmm........who said 'jaw-jaw, not war-war'? Churchill?

 

[ChristineM]

Yes..... Not exactly a diplomat's cake-walk.

It's the only way i can think of but it never going to satisfy greed

 

[Stonetree]

@oldbadger, on line #39, there is a partial profile of the 'State' of Palestine before the 'October 7th' atrocity. The partial profile shows the disadvantages and a few advantages that Palestine displayed. The Israelis have fared better than the Palestinians in the last 75 years. Unlike the
solution that worked for England and Ireland, I don't believe Palestine would have the same success. However, Palestine should be given that chance. ...As far as who has the historical rights to the land, humans don't own the earth. We are temporary homesteaders. Presently, Israel is committing genocide demonstrating their resolve to homestead their small part of the world....I don't know if the Palestinians resisted Hamas in any way. If they didn't oppose Hamas then they are no better than Hamas......I suggest the US stop supporting operations that we disapprove of.

 

[icehorse]

Where do you live?
How long have your people been where you live?
How far back do you want to go?

Just how many lives are your ideas going to cost?

Well as I've said many times on RF, every human alive is living on stolen land. That's kind of why I'm bringup this discussion.

As far as lives lost, I think the UN has to step in to end this, and probably, until Muslims put an end to Islamism, the UN will always need to police whatever two state solution gets cooked up.

As a point of clarification, you and @ChristineM both said "1948". Was that before the war?, after the war?, does that include the "separated body" around Jerusalem?

Also, many times I've brought up the tactical problems of giving the WB to Palestinians. I think this video does a good job of explaining why this would be a tactical nightmare...

 

[ChristineM]

As a point of clarification, you and @ChristineM both said "1948".

You know precisely why i stated 1948, if by some chance you genuinely don't know then i suggest you learn some history of the area

 

[icehorse]

You know precisely why i stated 1948, if by some chance you genuinely don't know then i suggest you learn some history of the area

so does that include the separated body?

Listen, I'm trying to have an actual conversation here. As I said, no gotcha's, just trying to understand. I will say (rephrase?), this again: I find the history of Israel to be extremely complex. No matter what start date is picked, I can find counter-arguments.

So please, can we discuss this without resorting to snark?

 

[ChristineM]

so does that include the separated body?

Listen, I'm trying to have an actual conversation here. As I said, no gotcha's, just trying to understand. I will say (rephrase?), this again: I find the history of Israel to be extremely complex. No matter what start date is picked, I can find counter-arguments.

So please, can we discuss this without resorting to snark?

So yes you do know why i said 1948 so you are simply trying to override Ben-Gurion to satisfy your own beliefs. That's fair enough but it has nothing to do with my considered solution.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So yes you do know why i said 1948

Or the 1949 Armistice Agreement? Then, of course, there was the 6-Day War, and ...