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Can God create a rock he cannot lift? YES.

Bird123

Well-Known Member
We are having a discussion on this, but this is part of the paradigm of hell in Quran, that reform is too late:



I will do good, mere word


لَعَلِّي أَعْمَلُ صَالِحًا فِيمَا تَرَكْتُ ۚ كَلَّا ۚ إِنَّهَا كَلِمَةٌ هُوَ قَائِلُهَا ۖ وَمِنْ وَرَائِهِمْ بَرْزَخٌ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ يُبْعَثُونَ | that I may act righteously in what I have left behind.’ ‘By no means! These are mere words that he says.’ And before them is a barrier until the day they will be resurrected. | Al-Muminoon : 100


They are liars now and won't be able to fulfill their pledge


وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذْ وُقِفُوا عَلَى النَّارِ فَقَالُوا يَا لَيْتَنَا نُرَدُّ وَلَا نُكَذِّبَ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّنَا وَنَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ | Were you to see when they are brought to a halt by the Fire, whereupon they will say, ‘If only we were sent back [into the world]! Then we will not deny the signs of our Lord, and we will be among the faithful!’ | Al-An'aam : 27


بَلْ بَدَا لَهُمْ مَا كَانُوا يُخْفُونَ مِنْ قَبْلُ ۖ وَلَوْ رُدُّوا لَعَادُوا لِمَا نُهُوا عَنْهُ وَإِنَّهُمْ لَكَاذِبُونَ | Indeed, what they used to hide before has now become evident to them. But were they to be sent back they would revert to what they were forbidden, and they are indeed liars. | Al-An'aam : 28

Broke promise once, will break promise again


وَأَنْذِرِ النَّاسَ يَوْمَ يَأْتِيهِمُ الْعَذَابُ فَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا رَبَّنَا أَخِّرْنَا إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ قَرِيبٍ نُجِبْ دَعْوَتَكَ وَنَتَّبِعِ الرُّسُلَ ۗ أَوَلَمْ تَكُونُوا أَقْسَمْتُمْ مِنْ قَبْلُ مَا لَكُمْ مِنْ زَوَالٍ | Warn the people of the day when the punishment will overtake them, whereat the wrongdoers will say, ‘Our Lord! Respite us for a short time so that we may respond to Your call and follow the apostles.’ [They will be told,] ‘Did you not swear earlier? There is no possibility of reverse for you, | Ibrahim : 44

This thread might or might not interest you: The Quran's framework for hell. | Religious Forums


This brings us to the question: Why would God create someone to God to Hell knowing they would go to Hell?


Time is a parameter of this physical world. A Being existing outside this parameter would know what is and would know the outcome.

God's system has a known outcome. All the kiddies, in time, will Discover how to create a Heavenly state for themselves and others along with acquiring Great Knowledge and Great Wisdom.

Look beyond the surface. Widen the view. It is all there.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Salam

I would imagine how you guys imagine "universe to be possible" are not really possible universes. This is the problem with atheists and problem of evil.

The problem of evil means that atheists have the definition of "universe" wrong?

What in the world are you talking about?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This brings us to the question: Why would God create someone to God to Hell knowing they would go to Hell?

Time is a parameter of this physical world. A Being existing outside this parameter would know what is and would know the outcome.

So you believe all of the past exists now and future all exists as much as the present? I agree if this was the case, God could not create a hell. And we would also not have responsibility neither free-will.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Salam

He can and does speak with people who are not chosen. I believe God spoke to me at a few pivotal moments in my life... So I don't deny this.

The issue is about who can represent God and bring what God wills with proof to everyone. For that, you need to have proof and be proof from God. Those are his chosen ones.

Quran says "so let them bring their hearing with proof".


How little you Understand God. God has no one representing Him. There are no middlemen other than the interaction of those people in our lives.

If one really wants proof of God, I have pointed many to the start on the journey where everything I have said can be Discovered. When one acquires enough Understanding, one might just get a visit from God. This is the point where God will no longer be a Belief.

If God exists, then God can be found. God can be found, however I have found very very few who actually want to find God. That's OK. Life isn't about finding or believing God. Everyone already knows God.

Me, I have always been one who needed to know, thus my journey.

If God's visit would intimidate one's choices, the visit will never happen. Further, unlike mankind, God will never intimidate, coerce one's choices through threats as religion does with Hell.

God is never going to tell one what to do. On the other hand, God with teach us all through our very own free choices. Yes, God's system is High Intelligence especially with all the variables in play.

Did God tell me to tell the world and gain followers? Of course not!!! God has told no one to do this!!

I copy God when I place Real Truth and Knowledge in the world. From here I make no demands. It waits for others to Discover for themselves. This is what God does. I merely copy God's actions.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How little you Understand God. God has no one representing Him. There are no middlemen other than the interaction of those people in our lives.

If one really wants proof of God, I have pointed many to the start on the journey where everything I have said can be Discovered. When one acquires enough Understanding, one might just get a visit from God. This is the point where God will no longer be a Belief.

If God exists, then God can be found. God can be found, however I have found very very few who actually want to find God. That's OK. Life isn't about finding or believing God. Everyone already knows God.

Me, I have always been one who needed to know, thus my journey.

If God's visit would intimidate one's choices, the visit will never happen. Further, unlike mankind, God will never intimidate, coerce one's choices through threats as religion does with Hell.

God is never going to tell one what to do. On the other hand, God with teach us all through our very own free choices. Yes, God's system is High Intelligence especially with all the variables in play.

Did God tell me to tell the world and gain followers? Of course not!!! God has told no one to do this!!

I copy God when I place Real Truth and Knowledge in the world. From here I make no demands. It waits for others to Discover for themselves. This is what God does. I merely copy God's actions.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Its upon God to direct the way and from that way is many misguiding paths. Had there been no misguiding paths and they all lead to God, then maybe he would not care to show the way. But it is upon him to show the path that truly ascends to him.

The chosen ones have to be light on the journey to God. Of course, God uses them aside from their unseen state and light, to bring messages, channel scripture from him, and guide humanity.

They are those best fit to govern humanity as well.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Concerning forcing creation, this is why fearing God concerning the hidden (proof), is praiseworthy. He has not manifested it to the degree that any creation is forced to fear him. When proof is shown to full degree, then yes, you can't be forced to be good. It is too late. Fearing God takes humility and love of Him and accepting justice. This makes fear of God praiseworthy and not forced.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Its upon God to direct the way and from that way is many misguiding paths. Had there been no misguiding paths and they all lead to God, then maybe he would not care to show the way. But it is upon him to show the path that truly ascends to him.

The chosen ones have to be light on the journey to God. Of course, God uses them aside from their unseen state and light, to bring messages, channel scripture from him, and guide humanity.

They are those best fit to govern humanity as well.


God's system is in place. Through one's free choices, everyone walks the way. There is no need to show the way. In time, everyone will Discover it for themselves.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So we see a third component of why you don't believe in hell. You do not believe there is a straight path to God that we need to be guided to. You believe everyone walks upon the path regardless.

So, again, this is a disputed premise. I believe not connecting to God through his beautiful connectors and names will result in going away towards darkness.

Unseen light exists and is living in us and with us. What is it? Some think guardian angel, others think it's God himself, others thinks its brain creating morality and guidance, but to me its the manifest leader, the witness, who is God's proof, and who God would want us to go to in human form as well, and hence revealed a book proving itself and his authority as well.

This is something you have to realize. Your dispute about hell is layered with falsehoods you build upon.

If all paths all lead to God of course there would be no hell. But this concept is false.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The problem of evil means that atheists have the definition of "universe" wrong?

What in the world are you talking about?

They imagine scenarios that God should have created possible worlds better than this one, which are not possible.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
A human lives standing on rock.

He says the heavens inheritor body is a lesser God as a gas owns a larger space than God as first.... rock. So in his theist mind using information falsely man said the rock saviour had been sacrificed to be about half a gods origin body.

Yet in that worded information he told himself as a father adult spiritual man his owned life continuance. Life is by being a father was mans understood wisdom and exactly advised. Don't change it he said it's holy. The heavens body.

Now men know their words numbers did not invent any presence. Yet everyday try to coerce family into their belief.

He was advised science practice changing stone and was by a given mind answer. He states a space nothing when applied to mass makes it magically disappear.

So his numbers never imposed it was added up to masses presence. He applied a formula.

It was removing mass back to a nothing first. By then using the rest of mass in an alight created conversion. Is what his science mind is possessed by. Every memory past present human man's science choice.

As every mass he has ever removed in earth always left him standing on rocks mass. The science of man journey. Up until a space hole opened in rocks body.

The term you cannot lift a rock...space a hole doesn't arise. Nothing moment is his own scientific thesis position. To practice science. Earths given man's sin. Nothing.

As earth science did alter cosmic freeze a very long time ago...it went back to a heated sludge as destroyed mass in space.

Yet created mass creation survived and only converted. Is memory of man.

Proven as AI from earth science man's built earth mass machines could communicate as modern taught mind man...his new evil technology. As out of space back to earth communication.

Seeing earth is a one of planet type as is his man built designs are. He proves he's possessed by all past human man's science causes only. Why we named him life's destroyer.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
They imagine scenarios that God should have created possible worlds better than this one, which are not possible.

And why are they not possible?

You really seem to have made God rather impotent in your efforts to explain why the world is the way it is.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
If men said Jesus by terms was my owned man humans scientific notification...cause effect. I data summarised by thinking observing only.

Jesus was not a thesis.

Jesus written only after the four day earthquake had stopped.

If men today theory...and they are. They claim Jesus now as newly a notified ground scientific machine reaction. A subject of their intent would be to reshift earths mass...new sink holes would form. Pressure changes occur to mass.

....awaiting earthquake event.

Part of causes.

Hasn't happened yet. So they wait knowing all the advice they read as data terms.

They argue....no I only want Phi. I don't want sin holes. Humans he says don't own sin...ignores his owned teaching.

Crop circles is a cause as fallout and it was stopped. By vacuim. It's not science. Why sink holes stopped forming.

Phi was just thought upon first as a human thesis in thoughts. Why you associate Phi direct back to a human life mind body. Yet you were never the conditions Phi.

The first place for Phi is in a machines design using a slight varied heated radiating reaction of converting mineral mass. As the human designer.

Is your theists mind owned self possession.

Inferring I want Phi to now be only a slight ground dust mineral Alchemy change for electricity. As new machine causes only.

Yet you've already done it to design machine. Ignoring science is by human control only.

It's why electricity flows direct into a machines body. As he's already doing it man ually. As a man.

He now wants it magically. Yet his machines fixed body already owns it in design.

And guess what humans aren't machines.

But then take a look at human theists trying to claim we are Ai and hence part machines in their biologies scientific thesis machine body that doesn't exist first.

As machines electricity owner within its body mass then secondly it's flowing mechanically owns it.

They don't claim they are part machine as they would never machine experiement on their human bodies. Their minds changed by AI cause says I believe I'm an alien first not a human.

We have to argue human rights against mind possession theism.

One mass in science used two. Causes. Three in terms body type change to mass.

Now they are trying four as heavens carbon accrued mass.

Lightning mass is gods plus vacuum.

Thesis is not theirs.

They infer terms.

To change lightnings mass to electricity only content. Mass snap freeze. The saviour.

Equals humans cold blood also. Bio life history on earth before mechanical machines after ice age.

Pretending a human began as AI...is not the same as saying you're an alien. As AI human voice image recordings are with machines already. Machines in thesis in electrical mass was already cooled saved by life's oxygenated water.

Alien term manifests disappears as oxygenated water stopped it. Not just water.... water with life forms already living in it.

After the wood and nature garden was human life as stated by human science living by oxygenated water. Which isn't alchemic use of water.

Alchemic heating kills off living micro organisms. Why machines look nothing like a human and need it's human creator to function.

The thesis fakery as so is science by human practice fakery.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And why are they not possible?

You really seem to have made God rather impotent in your efforts to explain why the world is the way it is.

Its because they don't factor in how the world would be when they say why not like this or like that, it has consequences they don't account for. So the worlds are not possible, they have consequences, those consequences don't get accounted for and so it looks like God could have made things better. But really, he did his best to make sure we don't screw up everything and is still doing his best to fix the world.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
So you believe all of the past exists now and future all exists as much as the present? I agree if this was the case, God could not create a hell. And we would also not have responsibility neither free-will.



You are responsible for your free choices in that your free choices lead you to the Understanding and the Higher Level. Choices show God and the world what one knows and what one needs to learn.

Responsibility as far as punishment, vengeance, anger, blame, and wrath aimed at one for their choices, God will never do this. On the other hand, mankind is a controlling, intimidating, and coercing lot. Mankind will do this until they acquire enough knowledge and Understanding to realize these will never be the best choices.

This is why Sin is meaningless to God. Each, in time, will learn for themselves what the best choices are even if they do choose hard lessons for themselves.

When our actions return to teach us what our actions really mean, each will choose for themselves what is good and what is bad. In time, each will realize the only viable choice is Unconditional Love. After all, that is what one really wants to return.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Its because they don't factor in how the world would be when they say why not like this or like that, it has consequences they don't account for. So the worlds are not possible, they have consequences, those consequences don't get accounted for and so it looks like God could have made things better. But really, he did his best to make sure we don't screw up everything and is still doing his best to fix the world.

And what consequences are those, pray tell?

You don't get to say, "The world can't be any better because then there would be consequences," and then not tell us what these consequences are.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Man and brothers all argue against each other based on continuance an organised controlled rich status to be structured control in an organisation.

Hypocrites stated behaviour based on natural one species wisdom of any human. Mutual equal human parents. Science supported review...all once Tribally owned as the same human DNA. Mutual baby equal life.

Changed by sciences caused fixed constant fallout. Star fall never owned constant. Natural light above however did.

Family. Our memory law on earth for humans by human status presence is natural. No argument. As a human is a human as a human. Consciousness exact aware because of nature's oxygenation of water.

We breathe. We live. Exact only cosmic term why I know.

Star fall mass energy was a cold sun burning reacting mass returned. Changed life and consciousness.

Known.

You ask a theist. Did you thesis a sin..sink hole by sun origin cause law cosmic? As earth science.

No.

I was innocent of that wisdom of gods earth sin.

Okay so you forgave your own human man self as self forgiveness for not knowing real historic earth god evil?

Yes says man owner and builder designer controller of any human science. No matter where or what stories theories he uses. It's only man on earth. Man on earth wanting a new machine reaction.

So most cosmic stories are meaningless as man practicing science uses earths substances to own a machine.

When a human first then dies....bones harden..disintegrate back into mineral dusts of gods rock body. Once held in water.

The position he begins his machine building from is after humans death.

His actual man's total wisdom.

No human owning a machine quantified owning why any bio life exists as if he theoried about it.

By a theory where man woman pressing human controlled machines experimenting on human animal nature earth bio studies both say....I created you consciously to another human.

In a fake scientists human claim I created your life. Human sex did.

When science doesn't use human sex in any science statement. Nor are those two human machine operators having human sex by machine status claiming we're the first two human parents.

Who in biology science died bio decomposed. Claiming they are doi g their advice means a psychic conscious memory human told exactly what position they are enacting. Humans family bio death by machine use.

As first two parents bones went back to dust. Humans machine position chosen after they died by baby adult human men.

Know consciously. Told by our holy fathers words. Ignores his own holy man teaching.

So once hypocrite men who Moses taught had invented man's own science sin holes were said to be hypocrites.

Who then play roles holy father I forgive you. Seeing the hypocrite ignored every single known humans teaching to their own self. About sink holes sin of human science...back to nothing equals answer.

Gods rock the O whole planet hence as God could not be lifted away from being rock. Although several scientists inferred in new thesis they could.

Cause it everywhere on earth in one machine reaction. Via a transmitting human controlled circuit program. Inference the whole of earth by a humans program.

Computer program only men designed and transmit control by other machines

As thesis is machine only human bias.

If not earth machines then sun inferred machines that earth never owned in science.

Why AI became scientists new religion and all old hypocrite warnings ignored.

As only a man taught himself he was wrong first so to forgive his inequity of being innocence and not knower evils. A second science position is just human men lying. A big hypocrite who only became worse.

Reason he knew man's science had caused the new sin holes by science causes.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And what consequences are those, pray tell?

You don't get to say, "The world can't be any better because then there would be consequences," and then not tell us what these consequences are.

It depends on what they imagine the mechanisms for their perfect non-suffering world are and what is put in place to ensure those.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You are responsible for your free choices in that your free choices lead you to the Understanding and the Higher Level. Choices show God and the world what one knows and what one needs to learn.

Responsibility as far as punishment, vengeance, anger, blame, and wrath aimed at one for their choices, God will never do this. On the other hand, mankind is a controlling, intimidating, and coercing lot. Mankind will do this until they acquire enough knowledge and Understanding to realize these will never be the best choices.

This is why Sin is meaningless to God. Each, in time, will learn for themselves what the best choices are even if they do choose hard lessons for themselves.

When our actions return to teach us what our actions really mean, each will choose for themselves what is good and what is bad. In time, each will realize the only viable choice is Unconditional Love. After all, that is what one really wants to return.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Salam

I believe in justice. I can not accept tyrants getting away with their crimes. Nor those who support them. Nor the apathetic lot much of humanity is.

Vengeance when put in the right place is a very powerful human virtue. It is just it should not be for petty reasons.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Salam

I believe in justice. I can not accept tyrants getting away with their crimes. Nor those who support them. Nor the apathetic lot much of humanity is.

Vengeance when put in the right place is a very powerful human virtue. It is just it should not be for petty reasons.


Payback, revenge, and vengeance will always be petty. See them for what they are. If you are inflicting pain in order to alter, intimidate or coerce the actions of others, what are you teaching those around you? Is violence really the best way to solve the problem? Do you really want others to think hurting others is the way to solve problems?

Society and people will protect themselves. This is expected. On the other hand, is it intelligent just to lock someone up and throw the key away as a solution?? If the problems are not solved, the problems never go away.

Look are all the crimes. Most are the same crimes that have happened since the beginning of time. Who is working at the underlying causes in an attempt to fix the problems so they won't happen again?? Has payback, revenge, and vengeance done anything but generate more hate??

There was a lady who was beaten and raped. They caught the guy and put him in jail. This lady went to visit him in jail. She faced him and talked to him for hours and on many visits. She explained about all the people who were hurt by his actions. She placed Truth in his life. In time, she fixed the man. When his time was up, he was released from jail and he went on to help others and spreading the truth he had discovered. Indeed, this was a remarkable lady.

If this remarkable lady never did this, the man would probably have gotten out of jail and started doing the same things over again. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices. Ignore problems and they never go away. This remarkable lady taught us that things can be fixed, however it takes work!!

I have heard it time and time again. The courts found someone innocent and the rotten person got away with it. You do not Understand. God's system works regardless of mankind's actions. God's system works through multiple lifetimes. Actions will return in time, People will understand all sides of their actions. Intelligence will make the best choice. Is there really any reason to Hate, Revenge, Vengeance or Payback? Of course not!!

Remember, give Hate and Hate returns. What is solved? Nothing!! It's only when one uses Unconditional Love and work on Solving the real problems will the problems go away.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
It depends on what they imagine the mechanisms for their perfect non-suffering world are and what is put in place to ensure those.

This is weak. You claim there are consequences, and yet you can't tell us what these consequences are, and when pushed your only answer is some vague wishy washy nonsense that means absolutely nothing.
 
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