• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Can God create a rock he cannot lift? YES.

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is weak. You claim there are consequences, and yet you can't tell us what these consequences are, and when pushed your only answer is some vague wishy washy nonsense that means absolutely nothing.

There is infinite mechanisms you can imagine. However it comes down to two ways, force or make truth appealing to the extent there is no remove to waver.

The problem with force is everyone would fear God while he is not unseen, and so fear of God with this type of enforcement is not like fear of God by the unseen/hidden, as it is now. It will have no element of love to it or very little of it.

The other type of thing is he could have made Adam of a body that none of the Angels would object to, because its even more amazing than their nature.

He could have made it that Prophets honor can't be assaulted, made his chosen kings invulnerable, and there no way for conflict with them or to put out their truth through falsehood.

But good and evil would not exist in these scenarios, and there be little value to worship God and ascending to him would not occur in a meaningful way.

Of course this does not mean a world of suffering had to happen. But it means it has to be possible for it to happen, for there to be significant meaning.

God opted to reward the good and sacrifice the evil ones fate, rather than making a world where there is no good and evil.

Of course, the bigger trial, the bigger reward, however, the trials with Adam and Angels prostrating was difficult, but the chances were all submit. Iblis was something not expected, of course, God always knew it was possible, but it was expected all obey.

Why do we pay the price? Because, if he made a lesson out of him, we would all fear consequences of disobeying or trying to misguide others, and worship of God would have little value, and so we would have little meaning.

So he was allowed to live and lead astray. But it was expected Adam remain steadfast especially since he was one of God's chosen and elite.

But that went bad.

And then God created this world of his mercy and as means of trial. But when Successors of Adam (A) were disobeyed and Nuh (a) could not save the people, things have gone terrible bad since.

When believers are saved, they become ungrateful after, and begin to act different when brought to safety.

Over all, we have not been able to emphasize on each other to be sincere. God expected we emphasize to one another to be sincere to Him and created this world, so we prove our worth to him collectively.

All things have gone terrible way when they were not meant to happen. God looks bad, when he has been trying to fix us.

Fate has been unkind it was improbable, but God did not want this. It is error handling upon error handling. The trials were not that difficult that this would come about.

But here we are, we can blame God or blame in reality who misguiding forces are and who are the cause of suffering, and try to change the situation.
 
Last edited:

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
There is infinite mechanisms you can imagine. However it comes down to two ways, force or make truth appealing to the extent there is no remove to waver.

The problem with force is everyone would fear God while he is not unseen, and so fear of God with this type of enforcement is not like fear of God by the unseen/hidden, as it is now. It will have no element of love to it or very little of it.

The other type of thing is he could have made Adam of a body that none of the Angels would object to, because its even more amazing than their nature.

He could have made it that Prophets honor can't be assaulted, made his chosen kings invulnerable, and there no way for conflict with them or to put out their truth through falsehood.

But good and evil would not exist in these scenarios, and there be little value to worship God and ascending to him would not occur in a meaningful way.

Of course this does not mean a world of suffering had to happen. But it means it has to be possible for it to happen, for there to be significant meaning.

God opted to reward the good and sacrifice the evil ones fate, rather than making a world where there is no good and evil.

Wow, that's just all over the place.

If I could stop a rape from happening, I would. I assume you would to. God IS capable of stopping it, and yet he doesn't. Consider the difference there.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wow, that's just all over the place.

If I could stop a rape from happening, I would. I assume you would to. God IS capable of stopping it, and yet he doesn't. Consider the difference there.

If I stop it, with the power I have, there are no consequence, only benefits. If God stops it, there will be. The consequences is that he would be expected to stop all crimes. And if he stops all crimes, we won't do them purely out of fear.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
If I stop it, with the power I have, there are no consequence, only benefits. If God stops it, there will be. The consequences is that he would be expected to stop all crimes. And if he stops all crimes, we won't do them purely out of fear.

I fail to see the downside here.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Tiberius on top of that, some atheist philosophers argued that paradise is impossible, given enough time, we would become super bored with same things over and over again. This would be the case if we were created without trial. This is why a high spiritual ascension reward type paradise, which is a reward to faith and guided by faith, is better.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
@Tiberius on top of that, some atheist philosophers argued that paradise is impossible, given enough time, we would become super bored with same things over and over again. This would be the case if we were created without trial. This is why a high spiritual ascension reward type paradise, which is a reward to faith and guided by faith, is better.

Yeah, I can see why eternal paradise would get boring. Such would render Heaven to actually be Hell though, wouldn't it?

But are you really suggesting that we have suffering because if we didn't we'd be bored?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why would God not be able to create such a world where significant meaning WAS possible?
He can and original plan was that but not without risk of suffering. A world without possibility of suffering is a world where disobedience in a significant way to Him is not possible. If not possible, then he would either do it by dazzling us in the way truth is presented without trial or would make us all fear (forced), then this cannot have meaning. Goodness cannot exist in such a world.
Yeah, I can see why eternal paradise would get boring. Such would render Heaven to actually be Hell though, wouldn't it?

But are you really suggesting that we have suffering because if we didn't we'd be bored?

This is one reason, its a component of why he created us to know Him and Worship him, so we can ascend in truth and be rewarded in the next world with truth.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

@Tiberius God created Angels first, that is the race of Jinn were all worshiping God eons before humans were created.

They became overtime full of themselves. God could have kept it like this, or could've created Adam (a) in a way none of them would say the human race will cause havoc and bloodshed as a prediction due to our body nature and potential to harm one another or created Adam with even more light and power then Angels, and make him of even a more bright smokeless fire nature that Angels were and be of the light world with a higher type reality there then all of them, but the trial would be too easy. None of them would object.

And worship by Angels of God was almost meaningless, per Quran, as it can be see they begin to question God's choice and were full of themselves. Then through trial of Adam, they became humble and were taught the titles all of them, and were able to recognize the exalted nature of those they were shown for eons before Adam (a) but didn't even know their titles and attributes in reality till Adam (a) taught them.

The human race and our purpose cannot be understood with understanding Jinn and Angels. Angels gain rank by humbling themselves to those in Authority from humans and asking forgiveness for their followers and attempting to help connect their followers to Ahlulbayt of their time. From Adam to the Mahdi.

The Jinn who think they should be gods to humans or that humans should not have been created or think they should be the authorities and humans follow them, are arrogant still. A great portion of Jinn per Quran changed when Mohammad (s) and his family (a) took position of the lanterns of heaven connected to this world, because, of the power they have, they realized, there is no beating that, and there is no room to catch up, and they also augmented the Angels powers and so there is no close playing field. The devils that remain are extremely arrogant to believe that one day they can catch up and stop heaven.

Anyways, I wanted to talk about Jinn, because you can ask, why not create us as all Angels, and just worship God. This is the answer.

They had no suffering, or trial for eons, but became significantly arrogant and their worship vain till God tried them with Adam and humbled them.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
He can and original plan was that but not without risk of suffering. A world without possibility of suffering is a world where disobedience in a significant way to Him is not possible. If not possible, then he would either do it by dazzling us in the way truth is presented without trial or would make us all fear (forced), then this cannot have meaning. Goodness cannot exist in such a world.

That's quite a claim. If there is no suffering, then we can't really disobey. How in the world do you figure that?

This is one reason, its a component of why he created us to know Him and Worship him, so we can ascend in truth and be rewarded in the next world with truth.

So wouldn't the eternal boredom happen there?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Salam

@Tiberius God created Angels first, that is the race of Jinn were all worshiping God eons before humans were created.

They became overtime full of themselves. God could have kept it like this, or could've created Adam (a) in a way none of them would say the human race will cause havoc and bloodshed as a prediction due to our body nature and potential to harm one another or created Adam with even more light and power then Angels, and make him of even a more bright smokeless fire nature that Angels were and be of the light world with a higher type reality there then all of them, but the trial would be too easy. None of them would object.

And worship by Angels of God was almost meaningless, per Quran, as it can be see they begin to question God's choice and were full of themselves. Then through trial of Adam, they became humble and were taught the titles all of them, and were able to recognize the exalted nature of those they were shown for eons before Adam (a) but didn't even know their titles and attributes in reality till Adam (a) taught them.

The human race and our purpose cannot be understood with understanding Jinn and Angels. Angels gain rank by humbling themselves to those in Authority from humans and asking forgiveness for their followers and attempting to help connect their followers to Ahlulbayt of their time. From Adam to the Mahdi.

The Jinn who think they should be gods to humans or that humans should not have been created or think they should be the authorities and humans follow them, are arrogant still. A great portion of Jinn per Quran changed when Mohammad (s) and his family (a) took position of the lanterns of heaven connected to this world, because, of the power they have, they realized, there is no beating that, and there is no room to catch up, and they also augmented the Angels powers and so there is no close playing field. The devils that remain are extremely arrogant to believe that one day they can catch up and stop heaven.

Anyways, I wanted to talk about Jinn, because you can ask, why not create us as all Angels, and just worship God. This is the answer.

They had no suffering, or trial for eons, but became significantly arrogant and their worship vain till God tried them with Adam and humbled them.

Okay.

No idea why we're talking about this in a thread discussing if God can create a rock so heavy he can't lift it, but okay...
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So wouldn't the eternal boredom happen there?

No the rewards are multiplied and amplified and the journey to God is not ending, but intensifying over time. This is only due to nature of faith and trials that made it possible.

Without faith and goodness, such travel impossible.
 
Last edited:

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
No the rewards are multiplied and amplified and the journey to God is not ending, but intensifying over time. This is only due to nature of faith and trials that made it possible.

Without faith and goodness, such travel impossible.

This makes no sense. If the journey to God is unending, and the rewards are multiplying and amplified, then they will increase towards infinite.
 
Top