Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
So why does hell exist?
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Can good people go to hell?
- Thread starter Intrigued2003
- Start date
yiostheoy
Member
I can only surmise speculatively from Philosophy that due to the dualistic nature of Zoroastrianism and all the major religions that followed it (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) that the nature of the duality requires a census and reckoning at the conclusion of the trial by fire process.
Thus there must be at least 2 places if not 3 for rewards.
Jesus talks about Heaven and Hell for those who have good works versus evil deeds.
The Catholic popes also invented Purgatory for those souls who neither have good works nor evil deeds.
The Bible (both Hebrew Tenakh and/or Greek New Testament) does not shed any light on those who are lukewarm however -- only that they must depart to go somewhere -- although not clear where to.
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dianaiad
Well-Known Member
She certainly was involved in the creation of half of my DNA; I look a great deal like her, as a matter of fact, until we find a picture of my father's mother, and then people say I look a great deal like her.
uncung, I happen to believe that God DID create us...but my existence is not proof that He did. To make that claim, I think, is the worst sort of hubris. I mean, really: are you and I so incredibly special that among all the stars, planets and the universe, WE are the proof of His existence?
(shaking head) Isn't 'pride' one of the seven deadlies? Or...does Islam have a list like that? Is overweening pride a sin in Islam?
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
OK....heaven is real because
my religion says so and
my religion says so because
God made my religion and
God made my religion because
my religion says so?
uncung, I do not wish you to lose your faith. I just wish you to find it through a fashion that will allow you to keep it, thoughtfully, in the face of opposition. Lousy logical reasoning isn't going to help you with that.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Do you believe that there are limits to your 'living life to the fullest?" That is, do you believe that your right to live YOUR life to the fullest supersedes someone else's attempt to do the same?
For instance: if 'living life to the fullest' means that you want to go sailing in the morning, with good friends, good food, wine and great conversation, that's fine...does it mean that it's OK for you to steal the boat from someone else in order to do so, leaving that someone else on the dock? Perhaps you need to knock that other person out and throw him overboard in order to stop his objections to your plan for the day?
If that's OK with you, of course, I don't think we have anything to talk about. If you don't think that it is appropriate to steal someone else's ability to 'live life to the fullest' in order to live your own life in that way, we might get somewhere in defining what 'sin' is.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
That's quite true. We are here because God did it. However, our existence isn't proof that He did. Do you understand the difference between the two concepts?
yiostheoy
Member
In Western Philosophy the concept of First Cause means our existence IS precisely proof "that he did".
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
Yeah sorry about that one "The quote function" that is, I messed up. I on the other hand use the NKJV because its easier for me to read and understand. I dont know about the fact that Evangelicals dont like Mormons. Personally for me, I can get along with anyone, I dont care what you believe, I mean, I dont look down on anyone who believes something different than I do. But if they ask me what I believe, I will tell them. If they ask a question and want opinions I will give mine. I learned a long time ago that its futile when someone comes to your door to have good dialog about God and you find out that you have opposing doctrine. It just doesnt work. I'm not going to convince you the doctrine I believe is right and you are not going to convince me that your doctrine is right. Besides, its not our job. God draws people to Himself not us. He may use us to give the gospel message but its the Holy Spirit who softly speaks to an individual. We do have differences on biblical doctrine for sure, but I always tell people if they are not 100% sure what they believe is correct, just ask God Himself to show you what is true. He will! Its a personal relationship with Him anyway that He desires to have with us. God is not interested in religion or what church you go to. He is interested in you. He wants a personal relationship with YOU! I have a friend I work with who has been dialoging with a old man who is like 82 that also works at our facility but in another department who has been a Mormon for 75 years! They have been talking with each other for the last 5 years! Thats wonderful! This man likes to sit and talk with my friend because he has realized how much my friend cares for him as a person. I have a saying I like to use and I keep reminding myself of it. "No one cares what you know, until they know how much you care about them." I try to live by this.
You are a most unusual Christian. I very much respect your attitude here....and isn't it sad that your attitude surprises me.
dianaiad
Well-Known Member
yeah...but it isn't.
Science keeps making inroads on the processes of physics...and of the 'mechanics' of life and the creation of same. Some look at this and grow afraid, as if learning such things disproves the idea of the 'First Cause.'
Not for me, though. I look at science and all the things we are learning and I become more awestruck; so THAT'S how He did it!
But that's not why I believe that there is a God. I don't think that empirical science will ever prove that there is, any more than it can ever prove that there isn't, any more than finding out HOW Ford designed and built the Edsel can show us WHY they did it, and the 'who' did it may well be too embarrassed to own up to it.
Two entirely different areas of investigation.
Come to think of it, I flashed to the Edsel when I read the bit about how our mere existence is proof that God exists. I mean, really: would Ford like to have its proof of existence defined by the Edsel?
yiostheoy
Member
Jeeze now you are mixing Science and Philosophy.yeah...but it isn't.
Science keeps making inroads on the processes of physics...and of the 'mechanics' of life and the creation of same. Some look at this and grow afraid, as if learning such things disproves the idea of the 'First Cause.'
Not for me, though. I look at science and all the things we are learning and I become more awestruck; so THAT'S how He did it!
But that's not why I believe that there is a God. I don't think that empirical science will ever prove that there is, any more than it can ever prove that there isn't, any more than finding out HOW Ford designed and built the Edsel can show us WHY they did it, and the 'who' did it may well be too embarrassed to own up to it.
Two entirely different areas of investigation.
Come to think of it, I flashed to the Edsel when I read the bit about how our mere existence is proof that God exists. I mean, really: would Ford like to have its proof of existence defined by the Edsel?
That's as bad as mixing Science and Religion.
I am surprised you do not see it.
The problem is that I could prove anything following the same reasoning.
For instance, I could prove the existence of the magical blue fairy. How? Simple, she created you.
How would you object to it?
Ciao
- viole
What is hell like ? Jesus went to biblical hell the day he died - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Jesus taught sleep in death as do the old Hebrew Scriptures:
- John 11:12-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Aren't we to live life to the fullest in that we are to act fully responsible toward both God and man ?_______
Wouldn't that mean refraining from doing what is wrong in God's eyes ?______ - Ecclesiastes 8:9
As we know, when a person breaks man's law it is called a crime, whereas breaking God's Law is called a sin.
Since we are imperfect we can all sin by mistake or by accident.- Romans 5:12
Jesus covers our inherited leanings toward wrongdoing.
It is when we deliberately, on purpose, willfully, premeditated, intentionally break God's Laws and principles that we can become guilty before God.
Some can reach a point of No return according to Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6
Jesus taught sleep in death as do the old Hebrew Scriptures:
- John 11:12-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
Aren't we to live life to the fullest in that we are to act fully responsible toward both God and man ?_______
Wouldn't that mean refraining from doing what is wrong in God's eyes ?______ - Ecclesiastes 8:9
As we know, when a person breaks man's law it is called a crime, whereas breaking God's Law is called a sin.
Since we are imperfect we can all sin by mistake or by accident.- Romans 5:12
Jesus covers our inherited leanings toward wrongdoing.
It is when we deliberately, on purpose, willfully, premeditated, intentionally break God's Laws and principles that we can become guilty before God.
Some can reach a point of No return according to Matthew 12:32 and Hebrews 6:4-6
Interesting question ^ above ^ because in the Genesis-Eden account at creation there is No existence of a hell.
So, before Adam and Eve sinned there was No hell.
Adam was educated that breaking God's Law - Genesis 2:17 - would end up with the death penalty.
So, Adam brought death into our world - Romans 5:12 - and through father Adam death spread to all mankind.
Since we can Not stop sinning we die. At death we go to biblical hell which is mankind's temporary grave.
At Jesus' death, even righteous Jesus went to the Bible's hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Biblical hell, according to Jesus, is just the sleeping place for the dead - John 11:12-14
So, hell (grave) came into existence because of sin, the breaking of God's Law.
Biblical hell's existence is temporary because Jesus has the keys to unlock hell - Revelation 1:18
After the Bible's hell is emptied-out, then biblical hell, the grave, will be cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death' for vacated hell.
That means both hell and death will be No more when Jesus begins his 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth. - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
Actually I want to live my life without "sin". Why? Because I am not interested in following the commandments and the bible.
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
Never heard of biblical hell before.
Your comment ^ above ^ is common because the churches of Christendom teach a non-biblical hell as being Scripture.
So, people think the Bible's hell is what they are being taught unaware that when the unfaithful Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their non-biblical philosophies and theories as being Scripture. When KJV ( King James Version ) of the Bible translated the word ' Gehenna ' into English as hell and hellfire then the clergy of Christendom used that religious-myth ' fire ' as a scare tactic on the flock to control them.
In Scripture the dead know nothing - Ecclesiastes 9:5 - so there is No consciousness in death - Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; John 11:12-14
So, the Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead (R.I.P.) until resurrected out of the grave - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
So why did the christians use " 'fire' as a scare tactic on the flock to control them"?
Probably because ' ice ' would not have worked as well !!!
Seriously though, Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 helps shed some light on that ' fiery ' subject.
We are forewarned that oppressive wolves ( false clergy dressed in sheep's clothing ) would try to fleece the flock of God in order to draw away followers after themselves.
- 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 1 John 2:18-19
In other words, false clergy put words in Jesus' mouth that never came out of Jesus' mouth. As if they are some sort of holy ventriloquists.
They often use their own agenda, often political, instead of Jesus' agenda, in order to further their own agenda.
They are the composite ' man of sin ' the ' son of perdition (destruction)' who seat themselves in the temple (houses of worship) as if they are God when in reality they are anti-God.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:3-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8; Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
Trial by ' fire process ' in Scripture does Not mean a literal fire but a BIG trial - Revelation 7:14
As far as 2 places if not 3 rewards, please consider that Jesus did Not offer heaven to every righteous person.- Acts of the Apostles 2:34; Matthew 11:11
Only those having a first or earlier resurrection reward are called to heavenly life to rule with Christ for a thousand years over Earth - Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10
ALL who died before Jesus' died can have their reward by gaining ' everlasting life ' on Earth - John 3:13; Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29; Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14
As far as the willfully wicked are concerned, their adverse ' reward ' is that they will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7; Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6; Isaiah 11:3-4
So, the 3 rewards are:
1) Heaven for some
2) Earth for the majority
3) Destruction for the wicked
For the people alive on Earth at the soon coming ' time of separation ' - Matthew 25:31-33,37 - they can avoid biblical hell (grave) because they can remain alive on Earth, and continue to live on Earth, right into the start of Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth when even ' enemy death ' will be No more - 1 Corinthians 15:26; Isaiah 25:8
They will come out of the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14 into Day One of Jesus' millennium-long day of reigning down blessings upon Earth.
Earth's nations will be healed - Revelation 22:2 - because mankind will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on Earth for the healing of earth's nations.
That will be in fulfillment of God's promise to father Abraham that ALL families and ALL nations will be blessed - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 - blessed with healing.