Can humanity surprise God?

[xxclaro]

How could that possibly make sense?

It can't,that was kind of the point. In the old testament,God is often surprised by man. In fact,a few times he has to come down to check things out for himself(casts doubt on the whole "all-knowingness" doesn't it?) before making a decision. However,we are also told that God is indeed all-knowing and all powerful. This one one of the first things to jump out at me that began my doubting of the Bible as the word of God.

 

[Gauss]

If there exists a god, it depends on its qualities as to whether it can be surprised.

-What is its relationship to spacetime?
-What is its level of knowledge and consciousness?
-Does it even care about or notice humanity at all?

Good question. It is said in Falun Gong that a God is almighty in the dimensions below his level. At higher levels, he knows nothing or very little about them. It is a pyramid and on top of it is the Holy king of the wheel turning this whole cosmos.

Ie a Tataghata Buddha(Jesus, Buddha Sakyamuni, Lao Zi) cares about human stuff whereas the higher Gods do not care at all about us, he cares about the Tathagata Buddhas on the other hand.

 

[Requia]

no, god would not be surprised by humanity if he is all knowing, and if he is all knowing then we don't actually have free will. That concept is one of the easiest to grasp, but still for some reason people don't think it's right because god is above our knowledge.

just like my cancer-curing tomatoes

Where exactly does this idea that simply because things are deterministic we lack free will come from? Determinism and free will seem to be completely seperate concepts to me.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Where exactly does this idea that simply because things are deterministic we lack free will come from? Determinism and free will seem to be completely seperate concepts to me.

Well, as I have always understood it, in determinism your future actions are already determined and in free will they are not. You seem to have a different understanding. How do you define free will? Determinism?

 

[Penumbra]

Surprise is when something happens that you did not think would happen. As such, there is only one attribute of God that determines whether or not he can be surprised and that is whether or not he knows the future.

There is more to it than that. Being able to see the future, and being all-knowing, are two different things. He could perhaps see the future for himself, but not know the future for humanity. Or he could know everything about the present but not know the future. He could have the ability to know anything but choose not to know about certain things because he doesn't care. I mean, he might not even bother to watch the events on Earth.

 

[Beaudreaux]

There is more to it than that. Being able to see the future, and being all-knowing, are two different things. He could perhaps see the future for himself, but not know the future for humanity. Or he could know everything about the present but not know the future. He could have the ability to know anything but choose not to know about certain things because he doesn't care. I mean, he might not even bother to watch the events on Earth.

Fair enough. Let's just say that if God know OUR future then we cannot surprise him.

 

[PolyHedral]

see that is the dilemma isn't it?
our free will, it is not pre destined or controlled...
it seems contrived for the believers of such nonsense
that is why the god in their bible is a jealous god, because he cannot control our actions as we try to control our pets

It is quite simple: You can do whatever you wish. However, "whatever you wish" will always be what God has predicted.

 

[joea]

Your God cannot be surprised with what you do.... you all have been his slaves and puppets.

 

[Beaudreaux]

It is quite simple: You can do whatever you wish. However, "whatever you wish" will always be what God has predicted.

Kind of like when my dad used to say to me "You can do whatever you want Saturday morning as long as it's mow the lawn."

 

[sojourner]

I can do whatever I wish? I thought you said it was not possible for me to do anything other than what God knows I will do.

You can do whatever you wish. Whatever you do will not surprise God. You're coming from the standpoint that "you" are the ground of being and that "you" provide the reference point for everything else. But in dealing with God issues, one must assume that God is the ground of being and is the reference point. The result is that sometimes what we end up doing surprises us, but it never surprises God.

 

[sojourner]

It is quite simple: You can do whatever you wish. However, "whatever you wish" will always be what God has predicted.

God doesn't "predict." God knows.

 

[sojourner]

Kind of like when my dad used to say to me "You can do whatever you want Saturday morning as long as it's mow the lawn."

Not at all.

 

[sojourner]

If there exists a god, it depends on its qualities as to whether it can be surprised.

-What is its relationship to spacetime?
-What is its level of knowledge and consciousness?
-Does it even care about or notice humanity at all?

I think a better question would be:
"What is space/time's relationship to God?"

 

[Beaudreaux]

You can do whatever you wish. Whatever you do will not surprise God.

But God knew every action I would ever take before He created the universe, right? For example, today, right now, God knows what I will eat for breakfast tomorrow. When tomorrow comes, no matter how much it may feel like I'm "choosing" my breakfast, there is only one thing that can happen and that is that I will do what God foreknew I would do. It is not a choice because there is zero possibility that I will do anything else.

 

[sojourner]

But God knew every action I would ever take before He created the universe, right? For example, today, right now, God knows what I will eat for breakfast tomorrow. When tomorrow comes, no matter how much it may feel like I'm "choosing" my breakfast, there is only one thing that can happen and that is that I will do what God foreknew I would do. It is not a choice because there is zero possibility that I will do anything else.

**sigh** Try to keep up. Our choices are not based in God's knowledge of those choices. Time and circumstances are not rigid and static events. They are quite fluid. Apparently, God recognizes that fluidity better than you do. Time isn't subject to linear dynamics, like you seem to want it to be.

 

[Thief]

**sigh** Try to keep up. Our choices are not based in God's knowledge of those choices. Time and circumstances are not rigid and static events. They are quite fluid. Apparently, God recognizes that fluidity better than you do. Time isn't subject to linear dynamics, like you seem to want it to be.

YO!....your linear existence demonstrates that linear thought is real.

 

[PolyHedral]

Time and circumstances are not rigid and static events. They are quite fluid.

Come back when you have a model of General Relativity that supports that. According to GR, spacetime is a perfectly "linear" (if such a term makes any sense) 4D structure, which is immutable.

 

[Beaudreaux]

**sigh** Try to keep up.

Well, it's very hard given how pithy an well thought out your position is. And you are grasping the concepts I present so well! I want to apologize for annoying you with my ignorance. One day, if I work very hard, I hope to be able to attain your wisdom.

OuBr choices are not based in God's knowledge of those choices. Time and circumstances are not rigid and static events. They are quite fluid. Apparently, God recognizes that fluidity better than you do. Time isn't subject to linear dynamics, like you seem to want it to be.

Look, the last thing I want to do is make you sigh in condescension so would you do me a big favor and teach me something? Please define what constitutes a choice? Is there a way to do so that does not entail time? Also, please teach me what constitutes a situation where a person takes an action but has no choice in what they will do, if such a situation can exist.

 

[averageJOE]

Are you saying it is impossible for you to do something God did not expect?

Yes. That's what I'm saying.

@ Sojourner, did god always know, even before he created the earth, that he was going to drown the entire globe in a flood? Meaning, he knew and expected man to become drunk with wickedness. If he did, then why did he set them up for failure?

 

[Gauss]

@ Sojourner, did god always know, even before he created the earth, that he was going to drown the entire globe in a flood? Meaning, he knew and expected man to become drunk with wickedness. If he did, then why did he set them up for failure?

Maybe because God needed to sift the sand and get gold out of this test, and the globe is not going to be drowned, there will be a new globe created for good people. Whoever believes in orthodox religions as mirrored in their good actions and character is very rare nowadays.

When I read Master Li Hongzhi´s books and lectures I wept like a baby, finally ultimate truth and the solution in sight. The religions were created to prepare mankind for these events, to make people know difference between good and evil. Every human being has waited for these end times during multiple lives of suffering down here in the maze. Now it is prime time. The one who wakes up now and starts cultivating himself seriously will be rewarded.