Can humanity surprise God?

[Beaudreaux]

...your metaphor was offered as an explanation as to why God would create a world that he knew would turn bad and need to be flooded to kill all life except for Noah and the passengers on the ark. How does this cosmos-cycle stuff address that?

Maybe because God needed to perfect the cosmos he needed this cycle...l

God is all-powerful

If God is all powerful, then he does not "need" anything to perfect the cosmos. He could do so with a thought.

 

[Gauss]

If God is all powerful, then he does not "need" anything to perfect the cosmos. He could do so with a thought.

Well, as I understand it Cosmos with its eternal laws of Truth, Compassion, Forbearance is perfect but the beings inside are not perfect and decide to go against the laws of cosmos over time, hence going against themselves. In the future perhaps sentient beings will be made more aware of the rules of cosmos while being at the lowest level of all levels, living on planet earth. The only chance to cultivate up is being in the maze here.

There are rules of how we play the game in cosmos. God created man as an image of himself, each man has a free choice of action, his actions determining whether he is going up or down. The problem is not God, the problem is man. If one gets too bad one will be exterminated forever.

I recommend you to read the book Zhuan Falun. I tell people if they have one day left to live that is the book to read! Each one who reads the book will be affected.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Oh...

But your metaphor was offered as an explanation as to why God would create a world that he knew would turn bad and need to be flooded to kill all life except for Noah and the passengers on the ark. How does this cosmos-cycle stuff address that?

Maybe because God needed to perfect the cosmos he needed this cycle, we have had nine worlds it is said and man has three souls and seven spirits, hence at the tenth world maybe it will become perfect?.... In the future that cycle should be over with, I hope.

Try reading the book Zhuan Falun to understand better: Download Falun Dafa Falun Gong books and articles: books

Well, as I understand it Cosmos with its eternal laws of Truth, Compassion, Forbearance is perfect but the beings inside are not perfect and decide to go against the laws of cosmos over time, hence going against themselves. In the future perhaps sentient beings will be made more aware of the rules of cosmos while being at the lowest level of all levels, living on planet earth. The only chance to cultivate up is being in the maze here.

There are rules of how we play the game in cosmos. God created man as an image of himself, each man has a free choice of action, his actions determining whether he is going up or down. The problem is not God, the problem is man. If one gets too bad one will be exterminated forever.

I recommend you to read the book Zhuan Falun. I tell people if they have one day left to live that is the book to read! Each one who reads the book will be affected.

So why did God create a world that he knew he would have to flood to death (Noah)? Why didn't he create it differently so that he would not have to flood it to death?

 

[joea]

So why did God create a world that he knew he would have to flood to death (Noah)? Why didn't he create it differently so that he would not have to flood it to death?

Beaudreaux,
All this nonsense talk is a waste of time....the important thing about all that you know, is your own knowing. Whatever knowledge you have (borrowed knowledge), is not your own, so don't convince others from what you've learned from others.....until you know something from your own experience...then one becomes genuine and authentic.

 

[PolyHedral]

Cosmos with its eternal laws of Truth, Compassion, Forbearance is perfect but the beings inside are not perfect and decide to go against the laws of cosmos over time, hence going against themselves.

"Perfection" is a transient property. In order for something to be "perfect", then all of its components must also be perfect. IMHO, it doesn't make sense for a perfect object to be corrupted, since that would mean the object wasn't perfect to begin with.

All this nonsense talk is a waste of time....the important thing about all that you know, is your own knowing. Whatever knowledge you have(borrowed knowledge), is not your own, so don't convince others from what you've learn fro others.....until you know something from your own experience...then one becomes genuine and authentic.

Logical argument is generally considered to be superior to subjective experience, sorry. An inconsistency in God can't be defended by saying "God knows best".

 

[Beaudreaux]

Beaudreaux,
All this nonsense talk is a waste of time....the important thing about all that you know, is your own knowing. Whatever knowledge you have (borrowed knowledge), is not your own, so don't convince others from what you've learned from others.....until you know something from your own experience...then one becomes genuine and authentic.

So...you believe reading the ideas of others is a waste of time? Are you saying that you only go by what you experience directly yourself? Your learning must be so very narrow in scope...

 

[joea]

So...you believe reading the ideas of others is a waste of time? Are you saying that you only go by what you experience directly yourself? Your learning must be so very narrow in scope...

There is nothing wrong with Knowledge Beaudreaux..... but it is easy to feel contempt towards those who are un-learned through that same knowledge...

 

[Beaudreaux]

There is nothing wrong with Knowledge Beaudreaux.....

Didn't you just say this is a "waste of time" because I didn't invent these ideas? What did you mean by that if you do not think there is anything wrong with knowledge?

but it is easy to feel contempt towards those who are un-learned through that same knowledge...

I have zero contempt in my heart for any of the people in this discussion? Is that how you feel?

 

[sojourner]

Have you ever tried to convince yourself free will doesn't exist? You speak of it so freely and as a matter of fact, I am just curious how much you have tried to understand the side that says there is no free will.

Well, I'd have to say that, in six years of graduate theological education and many years spent in spiritual formation, yes, I've studied the concept of free will. I find it Biblically and theologically sound.

 

[Dezzie]

Supposedly God(s?) is all knowing so why on Earth would he/she/they be surprised? I thought he/she/they already "know" what choices we're going to make. Although... if put in a different perspective... Yes, God would be very impressed with the strength that some of us have and the choices we make in life... especially since there are bad influences all over the world. I'm already impressed with myself to be honest.

 

[sojourner]

But the question of whether or not we can surprise God is really about the way WE experience time. Sure, God may not be limited by linear time, but WE ARE. That is why, if our future is known right now then it is impossible for us to do anything that vaires from it.

All I can say is that if God were surprised by us, it would surprise me!

In what way is God's surprise contingent upon our experience of time?

 

[sojourner]

How exactly is this argument (which I did not originiate) snotty and self-serving? Wow, someone gets upset when their ideas are challenged!

I can do whatever I wish? I thought you said it was not possible for me to do anything other than what God knows I will do.

The above is the "argument" you put forth. The tone is snotty, because it assumes superiority by downplaying my answer through the use of a twisted premise.
We can do whatever we wish to do. We determine our own actions. It is possible for us to do whatever we wish (within the laws of physics). God is never surprised by what we do, because God has a better perspective of our lives than we, ourselves, have. That knowledge in no way forces our actions upon us, nor does it determine them. Determinism is a force of will. Knowledge isn't. God knows. We determine.

 

[sojourner]

Oh....I thought you claimed God was omniscient. Well, if God is limited in his knowledge and does know know the future, then His knowledge does not abrigate free will.

I did claim that. However, since we are talking theology and not science or sociology, we cannot know absolutely what God knew about something before it existed. The closest the Bible comes to God being surprised by us is in Genesis, when "God went walking in the garden in the cool of the day." Since the story is allegorical, I don't think we can fairly load that anthropomorphism with an absolute declaration of what God is "like."

 

[sojourner]

I asked you to educate me about what a choice is a few posts back. I have offered a definition that states that choice is when a person selects from more thane one possible action. Do you have a better definition?

No. But I don't see how that determination is in any way curtailed by God's knowledge.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Well, I'd have to say that, in six years of graduate theological education and many years spent in spiritual formation, yes, I've studied the concept of free will. I find it Biblically and theologically sound.

Do you subscribe to Boethius' consolation?

 

[Beaudreaux]

No. But I don't see how that determination is in any way curtailed by God's knowledge.

So you accept my definition:

A choice occurs when an individual has more than one possible action to take and he/she decides to take one of them.
​

Correct?

 

[sojourner]

Do you subscribe to Boethius' consolation?

To a point, but I have definite problems with the concept of God "attaining" good. God is good. The work treats philosophy as a higher concept than God, IMO. I also don't especially agree with the assertion that "health, wealth, honor and power" are not really ours. In the sense that those things are physically understood, I agree. If health is understood as "not having the flu," then I agree. But if health is understood as something deeper -- as wholeness -- then I disagree.

I believe we are endowed with a great capacity for wholeness, which encompasses health, wealth, honor and power, and that capacity cannot be "taken away" from us.

Since humanity instinctually strives for wholeness, when we do those things that promote wholeness, we are working in harmony with the universe as God created it. When we do those things that subvert wholeness, we sin and operate out of harmony with the universe. The choice is ours. God is not surprised, because God created us to have that choice. I don't think God cares so much about our picayune, day-to-day "shall I take the bus or the cab to Vinny's?" choices as God pays attention to the larger choices of humanity as a whole.

 

[sojourner]

So you accept my definition:

A choice occurs when an individual has more than one possible action to take and he/she decides to take one of them.
​

Correct?

Yeppers.

 

[Beaudreaux]

So you accept my definition:

A choice occurs when an individual has more than one possible action to take and he/she decides to take one of them.
​

Correct?

Yeppers.

Good. I accept it too.

Can you explain to me what part of this illustration is incorrect?

 

[sojourner]

Good. I accept it too.

Can you explain to me what part of this illustration is incorrect?

You're basing the possibility of an action upon the occasion of God having knowledge of it. That is an assumption based upon a linear perception of time, which we've already agreed does not concern God. All actions in the red box are possible actions, not impossible actions.