Can humanity surprise God?

[sojourner]

My point is how do you get to the point where you believe?

Freewill?

Choice?

God's drawing or quicking?

Man is not free to choose; man did not choose to be born in a spiritual dead carnal body with a mind dead to all things spiritual. A Billion Muslim living in Islam do not have a choice to believe in Jesus, you did not choose where you were born, your color of skin or your parents; and we do not choose God; He chooses us.

God is not calling the who world now,


God is not calling all people now.


"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)

**Yawn**
So what? That's one interpretation. It doesn't happen to be mine. I'm not a Calvinist.

 

[sojourner]

One "must" come to love, in this way or that way... It doesn't bother you to be so confident in an interpretation? How do you get around the idea that by us taking the "action" to engage God, we are doing the work to get saved.
I guess it doesn't matter, we all twist the texts to backup whatever we want to believe in, me included. So yeah, best not to waste each others time.

Thanks...

Everyone has some comfort level with an interpretation. And that's OK. I would hesitate to say "confident," though, because that implies "beyond a shadow of a doubt" -- proof.
We have no proof. We only have evidence.

I don't say that we do the work to get saved. What I'm saying is that we make the choice to embrace the work of Christ in us. That's the choice we make in the process of salvation.

 

[Benoni]

One of the basic hidden scriptural spiritual example when ever you go East you are moving away from the presence of God; this is true in the natural but especially true in the spiritual.

Adam went "East of Eden"

Jesus is God.

This is misunderstood by most christians. Jesus means he supplies his Gong(energy) only to the cultivators of his school. However, he can only supply as you improve yourself and become a better man, more virtuous and more tolerant etc. This is the key issue where Master Li Hongzhi has clarified the eternal enigma of christianity and other religions.

Only the Master can give you Gong, in christianity Jesus is the Master, in Buddhism there are several Masters, the most famous being Sakyamuni. So that means you can never reach the heavens by yourself. One can build might virtue by himself by suffering and doing good deeds but one can never transform Gong from the virtue, the amount of Gong which decides exactly how high you can reach in the heavens.


Gong level is what one is after in all cultivation schools. Only Christians do not have a clue nowadays. Swedenborg clarified the issue well but nobody listened. Belief is the foundation for getting Gong but then the cultivation work starts, transform yourself into a better man and preferrably transform your body by doing special exercises of your own cultivation school, in Buddhism double Lotus, in Falun Gong five different exercises.

Cultivation is serious and nothing happens by accident. What one puts in is what matters.

 

[Benoni]

Neither am I; have I hate Calvin he believed in eternal torture. I am a Christian Universalist not a Calvinist and believe in the spiritual Word of God, not the letter that killeth.

I showed you using scripture in context how some one is saved; so where is your proof? You’re the one with six years of divinity school so where ids the beef?

How does a man believe? Where is your interpretation?

Double "Yawn" "Yawn"

**Yawn**
So what? That's one interpretation. It doesn't happen to be mine. I'm not a Calvinist.

 

[Benoni]

So what you are saying is Eph: 1-8 is HOGWASH, NO PROOF? But then you cannot show proof?

Show me this choice using God's Word? There is no choice when it comes to the man without the spirit.

There is no life to choose spiritual things when you are dead in trespasses and sin; have you ever seen a dead man choose anything; he is dead and cannot hear, see, touch anything. This is so much more true when it comes to being spiritually dead. Notice what 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us about the man with out the spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)

14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)


14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.

Everyone has some comfort level with an interpretation. And that's OK. I would hesitate to say "confident," though, because that implies "beyond a shadow of a doubt" -- proof.
We have no proof. We only have evidence.

I don't say that we do the work to get saved. What I'm saying is that we make the choice to embrace the work of Christ in us. That's the choice we make in the process of salvation.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Everyone has some comfort level with an interpretation. And that's OK. I would hesitate to say "confident," though, because that implies "beyond a shadow of a doubt" -- proof.
We have no proof. We only have evidence.

I don't say that we do the work to get saved. What I'm saying is that we make the choice to embrace the work of Christ in us. That's the choice we make in the process of salvation.

I agree with you that the Bible cannot be used as an authoritative source on the existence of free will. Clearly any such claims are nothing more than interpretation which could go either way. Best to leave scripture out of this debate.

 

[sojourner]

I agree with you that the Bible cannot be used as an authoritative source on the existence of free will. Clearly any such claims are nothing more than interpretation which could go either way. Best to leave scripture out of this debate.

finally! We agree!:clap

 

[sojourner]

So what you are saying is Eph: 1-8 is HOGWASH, NO PROOF? But then you cannot show proof?

Show me this choice using God's Word? There is no choice when it comes to the man without the spirit.

There is no life to choose spiritual things when you are dead in trespasses and sin; have you ever seen a dead man choose anything; he is dead and cannot hear, see, touch anything. This is so much more true when it comes to being spiritually dead. Notice what 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us about the man with out the spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New King James Version)

14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (New International)

14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (WE)

14The person who does not have the Spirit does not receive the blessings of the Spirit of God. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because only people who have the Spirit of God can test them.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NIRV)


14 Some people don't have the Holy Spirit. They don't accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. Things like that are foolish to them. They can't understand them. In fact, such things can't be understood without the Spirit's help.

God blew ruach into humanity's nostrils, and we became nephesh. I'd say that we were created living beings, with the spirit of God in us to quicken us.

Our spirit calls out in sights too deep for words.

God so loved the world...

We are living beings, equipped with the capacity to make choices, because love is only love when it is chosen.

 

[Beaudreaux]

If God knows we will not do something, and we do it (as you have said could happen) then of course God would be mistaken.

That's not what I said, now, was it!

I'm afraid it is precisely what you said...

All actions in the red box are possible actions, not impossible actions.

 

[sojourner]

I'm afraid it is precisely what you said...

Yet again, our actions are not contingent upon God's knowledge of them. Our actions are not "impossible because God knows we will not do them." All actions are possible. And God knows which ones will be made and which ones will not be made.
It's not a "prediction of the future," its a matter of omnipresence. God is already present within our future, and so knows what the decisions are as those decisions are made. Just because we aren't "there" yet and therefore can't "see the future," doesn't mean that God is constrained to that perspective.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I don't say that we do the work to get saved. What I'm saying is that we make the choice to embrace the work of Christ in us. That's the choice we make in the process of salvation.

This is the crux of the matter for me. If God didn't compel us to make that choice, how can you be so sure you would make the choice? If this is the case, God still get's all the glory cause we would never make the choice without his nudge.
On the other hand if we did make the choice on our own, God is not 100% responsible for our salvation, maybe 95% but not a 100%.

furthermore is it really a choice if God nudges us, cause I don;t think if God wants us to make the choice we have a say in the matter.

This doesn't hold very well with Paul's letter to the Romans.

So not to argue with you, but for me personally this is the ideology that prevents me from seeing free will as something legitimate.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Our actions are not "impossible because God knows we will not do them." All actions are possible.

Maybe you're using some definition of "possible" with which I am unfamiliar. When you say an action is possible, I take you to mean that it could happen. Am I correct? If so, then you are saying that something could happen that God knew would not happen. Should that occur, then God would be mistaken.

 

[sojourner]

Maybe you're using some definition of "possible" with which I am unfamiliar. When you say an action is possible, I take you to mean that it could happen. Am I correct? If so, then you are saying that something could happen that God knew would not happen. Should that occur, then God would be mistaken.

see post #130.

 

[sojourner]

This is the crux of the matter for me. If God didn't compel us to make that choice, how can you be so sure you would make the choice? If this is the case, God still get's all the glory cause we would never make the choice without his nudge.
On the other hand if we did make the choice on our own, God is not 100% responsible for our salvation, maybe 95% but not a 100%.

furthermore is it really a choice if God nudges us, cause I don;t think if God wants us to make the choice we have a say in the matter.

This doesn't hold very well with Paul's letter to the Romans.

So not to argue with you, but for me personally this is the ideology that prevents me from seeing free will as something legitimate.

In what way is God not 100% responsible for our salvation? God gives us this gift freely and unconditionally. we have nothing to do with that act. God acts. We respond.

Since the Bible tells us that "all people will see [salvation]," I am confident that we shall.

 

[McBell]

Can humanity surprise God?

Seems to me the Bible shows that not only can humans surprise god, but that they have disappointed god on more than one occasion.

 

[Beaudreaux]

see post #130.

I re-read it, but it does not clarify what you mean when you use the word "possible". Would you mind answering directly? When you say that something is "possible" are you saying it is something that could happen?

 

[Beaudreaux]

In what way is God not 100% responsible for our salvation?...God acts. We respond.

If we do not respond, are we saved? If not, then the response is certainly with a percentage point or two...

 

[True Faith]

Humans are amazing animals with tremendous capacity for creativity and moral excellence. Given our track record here on earth, though, it must be easy for God to expect the worst of us, but do you think that God is ever surprised by the choices some of us make?

It seems that you disagree with "god doesn't surprise", can you give example how can you surprise God?

 

[Beaudreaux]

It seems that you disagree with "god doesn't surprise", can you give example how can you surprise God?

Not sure why you think it seems that way, but to clear things up, I do not believe that an omniscient God could be surprised.

 

[Benoni]

Really. Then how come you are not quoting chapter and verse?

God blew ruach into humanity's nostrils, and we became nephesh. I'd say that we were created living beings, with the spirit of God in us to quicken us.

Our spirit calls out in sights too deep for words.

God so loved the world...

We are living beings, equipped with the capacity to make choices, because love is only love when it is chosen.