Can humanity surprise God?

[Just_me_Mike]

Well, I'd have to say that, in six years of graduate theological education and many years spent in spiritual formation, yes, I've studied the concept of free will. I find it Biblically and theologically sound.

Would you have any interest in maybe a different thread, and not a debate tone either, but convey to me the pros and cons you find merit in your decision.
Maybe also, some info that might make you see it the other way, that you have considered before, and how you overcame that to believe in free will?

 

[Beaudreaux]

All actions in the red box are possible actions, not impossible actions.

So, the things that God knows will not happen could possibly happen? Meaning God could be mistaken about what will happen and what will not?

 

[averageJOE]

So why did God create a world that he knew he would have to flood to death (Noah)? Why didn't he create it differently so that he would not have to flood it to death?

This is the question I asked, and the answer I got was "it was a story for our understanding".

 

[Gauss]

So why did God create a world that he knew he would have to flood to death (Noah)? Why didn't he create it differently so that he would not have to flood it to death?

Maybe because the people who died in the flooding were not worthy of keeping, those who remained were great. Garbage must be dealt with from time to time. What is left in the end is pure gold. Each human is different, some become good, some become bad.

I see cosmos as the body of God, inside there are organs, cells, viruses and very tiny microorganisms(humans). Some of these microorganisms become bad and hence must be dealt with so God does not become seriously sick.

 

[Gauss]

"Perfection" is a transient property. In order for something to be "perfect", then all of its components must also be perfect. IMHO, it doesn't make sense for a perfect object to be corrupted, since that would mean the object wasn't perfect to begin with.

Maybe the whole idea is to make the cosmos more and more wonderful all the time, that is why it is expanding. But its law of Truth, Compassion, Forbearance is absolute and perfect, the superior being is perfect but the microorganisms inside his body may not be perfect(humans) all the time. The physical expression may change over time since the cosmos is alive and God creates new things all the time. Now he is transforming the humans as we can see.

 

[PolyHedral]

Maybe because the people who died in the flooding were not worthy of keeping, those who remained were great. Garbage must be dealt with from time to time. What is left in the end is pure gold. Each human is different, some become good, some become bad.

Garbage does not need to be disposed of when it isn't necessary to produce garbage in the first place.

But its law of Truth, Compassion, Forbearance is absolute and perfect, the superior being is perfect but the microorganisms inside his body may not be perfect(humans) all the time.

But there is potential for improvement (i.e. replace humans with something "perfect") If He can be improved, He can't have been perfect to begin with.

 

[sojourner]

So, the things that God knows will not happen could possibly happen? Meaning God could be mistaken about what will happen and what will not?

Sure they could happen. Once again, our possible actions are not contingent upon God's knowledge of them. Just because God knows what we won't do doesn't make God "mistaken."

 

[sojourner]

Would you have any interest in maybe a different thread, and not a debate tone either, but convey to me the pros and cons you find merit in your decision.
Maybe also, some info that might make you see it the other way, that you have considered before, and how you overcame that to believe in free will?

I'm not interested in another thread. I'm fully aware of the arguments pro and con, and don't care to delve into it again, as I've other fish to fry. This is very simple for me:
God is love, and that is the relationship we have with God. Love is unconditional and does not insist on its own way. One must come to love of one's own free will, not under coersion.

 

[Benoni]

Originally Posted by sojourner
Well, I'd have to say that, in six years of graduate theological education and many years spent in spiritual formation, yes, I've studied the concept of free will. I find it Biblically and theologically sound.

Really???????????

The word freewill or choice have nothing to do with salvation; sure there are verses that speak of "belief".

But how do you get to the point of believe?

God draws (drags/forces) you, quickens you which has nothing to do with man having a freeewill; in fact it is to the contrary.

Freewill or choice are religous words and not scriptural words in that they are not found anywhere when it comes to salvation in the whole Bible.

 

[sojourner]

Really???????????

The word freewill or choice have nothing to do with salvation; sure there are verses that speak of "belief".

But how do you get to the point of believe?

God draws (drags/forces) you, quickens you which has nothing to do with man having a freeewill; in fact it is to the contrary.

Freewill or choice are religous words and not scriptural words in that they are not found anywhere when it comes to salvation in the whole Bible.

Yeah, really!

You, of course, understand that salvation depends entirely upon what God does for us, but that has no bearing whatsoever upon our capacity to make choices. God doesn't "drag" us. God entices us. The decision is ours to make, for that is the only way a love relationship works. "Love me, or else!" isn't love.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Sure they could happen. Once again, our possible actions are not contingent upon God's knowledge of them. Just because God knows what we won't do doesn't make God "mistaken."

If God knows we will not do something, and we do it (as you have said could happen) then of course God would be mistaken.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Really???????????

The word freewill or choice have nothing to do with salvation; sure there are verses that speak of "belief".

But how do you get to the point of believe?

God draws (drags/forces) you, quickens you which has nothing to do with man having a freeewill; in fact it is to the contrary.

Freewill or choice are religous words and not scriptural words in that they are not found anywhere when it comes to salvation in the whole Bible.

True. Ephesians 2: 8 - 10 indicates that salvation does not come from an individual's "choice" but rather is something God gives to a person. This whole idea of people choosing to be saved is not biblical.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
​

 

[Benoni]

The word draw us as stated in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The words translated "draw" and "drew" in the Greek New Testament are HELKUO and HELKO. Each of these words has the basic meaning of "compel ... .. draw," "pull," and "tug." In most instances the force which does the drawing or compelling is sufficient to cause the object of the drawing to respond fully.

Notice the context of the folowing verses.

Eph 2: 1(1) And you hathhe quickened, (2) who were dead in trespasses and sins;


QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).


2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (3) (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Finally man is in the picture.

8For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.

 

[Benoni]

My point is how do you get to the point where you believe?

Freewill?

Choice?

God's drawing or quicking?

Man is not free to choose; man did not choose to be born in a spiritual dead carnal body with a mind dead to all things spiritual. A Billion Muslim living in Islam do not have a choice to believe in Jesus, you did not choose where you were born, your color of skin or your parents; and we do not choose God; He chooses us.

God is not calling the who world now,


God is not calling all people now.


"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)

 

[Sunstone]

Can humanity surprise god?

The question depends entirely on whether god is ticklish, no?

 

[Gauss]

8For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.

This is misunderstood by most christians. Jesus means he supplies his Gong(energy) only to the cultivators of his school. However, he can only supply as you improve yourself and become a better man, more virtuous and more tolerant etc. This is the key issue where Master Li Hongzhi has clarified the eternal enigma of christianity and other religions.

Only the Master can give you Gong, in christianity Jesus is the Master, in Buddhism there are several Masters, the most famous being Sakyamuni. So that means you can never reach the heavens by yourself. One can build might virtue by himself by suffering and doing good deeds but one can never transform Gong from the virtue, the amount of Gong which decides exactly how high you can reach in the heavens.


Gong level is what one is after in all cultivation schools. Only Christians do not have a clue nowadays. Swedenborg clarified the issue well but nobody listened. Belief is the foundation for getting Gong but then the cultivation work starts, transform yourself into a better man and preferrably transform your body by doing special exercises of your own cultivation school, in Buddhism double Lotus, in Falun Gong five different exercises.

Cultivation is serious and nothing happens by accident. What one puts in is what matters.

 

[Gauss]

Garbage does not need to be disposed of when it isn't necessary to produce garbage in the first place.


But there is potential for improvement (i.e. replace humans with something "perfect") If He can be improved, He can't have been perfect to begin with.

God does NOT produce garbage, man does it himself. Man must improve himself by suffering and doing good deeds, that is the key to everything. This maze exists because you fell down here and you must work your way back up.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I'm not interested in another thread. I'm fully aware of the arguments pro and con, and don't care to delve into it again, as I've other fish to fry. This is very simple for me:
God is love, and that is the relationship we have with God. Love is unconditional and does not insist on its own way. One must come to love of one's own free will, not under coersion.

One "must" come to love, in this way or that way... It doesn't bother you to be so confident in an interpretation? How do you get around the idea that by us taking the "action" to engage God, we are doing the work to get saved.
I guess it doesn't matter, we all twist the texts to backup whatever we want to believe in, me included. So yeah, best not to waste each others time.

Thanks...

 

[sojourner]

If God knows we will not do something, and we do it (as you have said could happen) then of course God would be mistaken.

That's not what I said, now, was it! What I said was that just because God knows we will not do something does not affect our choice.

 

[sojourner]

True. Ephesians 2: 8 - 10 indicates that salvation does not come from an individual's "choice" but rather is something God gives to a person. This whole idea of people choosing to be saved is not biblical.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
​

And that's what I said, too. However, part of salvation is the reconciliation of humanity to God, which was effected by the Incarnation. Another part is that we have a choice as to whether we shall embrace that reconciliation.