Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[Numinous]

And isn't that an odd view to have of a law? Usually we consider a law to be something we're supposed to follow.
aren't Christians still supposed to follow the law, then Jesus comes in when you screw up? It's not like a free pass, is it?

I've never heard that criticism.

What I don't get is, are Christians supposed to follow God's laws, or not?

As far as I can tell a Christian follows the two laws Jesus spoke of, which he then said something to the effect of " if you follow these two laws, then the entire law is contained within them".
The freedom as I understand it, is a release from trying to do the law, but rather, simply love your neighbor as yourself, and love God. If those two things are sought after, there is no need for anything else. It is a freedom to exist with the acceptance one could never follow the entire law, but one did come and follow it perfectly, then taught something new.

I suppose it depends on your leaning, what makes sense and what doesn't. Like I said, I can see why Jews believe as they do, and Christians as they do. Both ideologies speak to the hearts of those that follow them, ya know?

 

[Autodidact]

As far as I can tell a Christian follows the two laws Jesus spoke of, which he then said something to the effect of " if you follow these two laws, then the entire law is contained within them".
The freedom as I understand it, is a release from trying to do the law, but rather, simply love your neighbor as yourself, and love God. If those two things are sought after, there is no need for anything else. It is a freedom to exist with the acceptance one could never follow the entire law, but one did come and follow it perfectly, then taught something new.

I suppose it depends on your leaning, what makes sense and what doesn't. Like I said, I can see why Jews believe as they do, and Christians as they do. Both ideologies speak to the hearts of those that follow them, ya know?

So, for example, all the Christians who think homosexuality is a sin are simply wrong?

 

[Numinous]

So, for example, all the Christians who think homosexuality is a sin are simply wrong?

I'm sorry, why are you asking me that? Did I miss something?

 

[Numinous]

So, for example, all the Christians who think homosexuality is a sin are simply wrong?

After second thought, if I understand your question, Sure from your perspective if they are wrong, they are wrong. Right?

 

[Numinous]

My personal opinion, is if Jesus asked his followers to love God and love their neighbors as themselves, they would do good to not worry about people's sexual orientation.

 

[Autodidact]

After second thought, if I understand your question, Sure from your perspective if they are wrong, they are wrong. Right?

No, from yours. Because there are only two laws, right?

 

[fallingblood]

In some weird way, it is all anybodies best guess. I mean we can only follow our hearts at the end of the day. If one version feels more correct, or to another rather abandoning them all, who are we to judge?

I can see how both the Jew and the Christian form their beliefs. The original thread and it's tone was suspect, much like my Jewish thread was.

It is simply mind boggling how many swimming pools there are to dive into and spend ones life.

The main reason I didn't put this in the Judaism forum is because I wanted all answers. And honestly, I was not quite sure as to what the correct answer was. Yet, as Harmonious pointed out, I did state I got an answer. As for now, the answer (quoting from Harmonious): "Jews can fulfill it on a daily basis, to the best of our ability, but no one person can fulfill the laws such that it can abrogate the obligations of Jews to fulfill our laws" is the best answer I've yet to see. There have been no actual rebuttals to that that have been credible.

I would still like to see a Christian explanation as to why Jesus stated that Christians don't have to follow the law, but I haven't seen one yet. Especially since Jesus stated the exact opposite. However, that does not mean that I think Christians should follow the law.

 

[Harmonious]

The main reason I didn't put this in the Judaism forum is because I wanted all answers. And honestly, I was not quite sure as to what the correct answer was. Yet, as Harmonious pointed out, I did state I got an answer. As for now, the answer (quoting from Harmonious): "Jews can fulfill it on a daily basis, to the best of our ability, but no one person can fulfill the laws such that it can abrogate the obligations of Jews to fulfill our laws" is the best answer I've yet to see. There have been no actual rebuttals to that that have been credible.

Very cool.

I would still like to see a Christian explanation as to why Jesus stated that Christians don't have to follow the law, but I haven't seen one yet. Especially since Jesus stated the exact opposite. However, that does not mean that I think Christians should follow the law.

I don't have a Christian answer, but I have this to say: Only Jews had to fulfill the full complement of Jewish law. Non-Jews only have the Seven Noachide Laws. At least, that is the Jewish (and Noachide) understanding.

I still don't understand the Christian responses that I've read, though.

 

[james2ko]

Very cool.


I don't have a Christian answer, but I have this to say: Only Jews had to fulfill the full complement of Jewish law. Non-Jews only have the Seven Noachide Laws. At least, that is the Jewish (and Noachide) understanding.

I still don't understand the Christian responses that I've read, though.

Only seven?? I guess I'm being overzealous

 

[Autodidact]

Only seven?? I guess I'm being overzealous

Not according to Numinous, who says you only have two.

 

[james2ko]

Not according to Numinous, who says you only have two.

Would that make her underzealous?

 

[free spirit]

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

There has only been one person that has fulfilled the Jewish law and that is Jesus of Nazaret.
Yes I have read 50/00 of the posts and I know what are you on about.

The fulfillement of the law means that a person has to die sinless, in other words throughout his life he never committed an offence.
In this treath there is many that disputes that for the simple fact that they have an axe to grind.

Christians can also fulfill the law by believing and imitate the life of Christ by going through repentance, and that is not only by filling sorry for what you did, but by actually fixing the cause that made you sin. You should know that it is our earthly character that has made us sin, so we have to replace our earthly character with the character of the sanctified spirit of Christ, which was given as a gift to whomever would ask and believe in him. the following is part of an article that I wrote in my "the way god told it" book.
We should also know that repentance has two facets. The first aspect of repentance has to do with changing our acquired religious beliefs. In other words, we need to convert from observing denominational doctrine and religious rituals, to have faith in what Christ did for us and to trust the gospel to imitate the character described in it, because religious doctrines and rituals are not of faith, but of dead works. Galatians 3:10-12 deals with such things in a stern and clear way, for we read: “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the Law, to perform them.’ Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, ‘The righteous man shall live by faith.’ However, the Law (or doctrine) is not of faith; on the contrary, ‘He who practices them shall live by them.”’ For that obvious reason we should convert (or repent) from these dead works and obey His gospel, because we are well aware (for many of us were among them) that the fleshly religious person observes doctrines and rituals, thinking that by doing that he is pleasing God, despite the fact that he is also mindful that sin still controls his life.
We should all know that Jesus has paid the price for our past sins and He has conquered sin in the flesh: It should be also obvious to all believers that men cannot do anything of themselves to gain salvation. All faithful believers should accept that salvation for humanity has already been achieved by our Lord and He has given His victory over sin and death to us as a gift. There remains one single thing for us to do, to be made Sons of God, and that is to crucify our fleshly character and put on His heavenly character. In other words, we need to renew the spirit of our mind through the works of repentance, because when our mind is holy the rest of us will be holy also.:angel2:

 

[fallingblood]

There has only been one person that has fulfilled the Jewish law and that is Jesus of Nazaret.
Yes I have read 50/00 of the posts and I know what are you on about.

I really don't think you know what I'm on about.

The fulfillement of the law means that a person has to die sinless, in other words throughout his life he never committed an offence.
In this treath there is many that disputes that for the simple fact that they have an axe to grind.

However, Jesus did commit various sins. The easiest to see is the disrespect he showed to his mother. Some of the Jews on this board who are more informed of the Laws than I could point out other sins the Jesus committed.

Christians can also fulfill the law by believing and imitate the life of Christ by going through repentance, and that is not only by filling sorry for what you did, but by actually fixing the cause that made you sin.

I don't think that quite works. You stated only a sinless person could fulfill the law. You also stated only one person has fulfilled the law, which means only one person has been sinless. Thus, no one else can fulfill the law by what you stated.

Also, could you explain how fulfilling the law means that no one has to follow it?


Your post still doesn't explain how one can fulfill the law in the Christian sense. And more so, you haven't shown why the law doesn't have to be followed.

 

[Rakhel]

Jesus could not have fulfilled all the laws because he was not of the Levite tribe neither was he a woman.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus could not have fulfilled all the laws because he was not of the Levite tribe neither was he a woman.

You are not talking about fulfillment you are talking about obedience. It is quite correct to say that Jesus only needed to obey laws that were pertinent to Him. However as God how many of those laws do appertain to Him?

There are two ways that Jesus fulfilled the law.

1. He brought the law to its final state. The law is now complete as far as written law goes.

2. The law has reached an end. ie. all requirements have been fulfilled for everyone on the cross. The necessity for having the law has been removed by Jesus becoming a living law in Christians.

 

[Muffled]

What you view as disrespect, God does not. It is your sinfulness that causes you to take this perspective.

 

[waitasec]

You are not talking about fulfillment you are talking about obedience. It is quite correct to say that Jesus only needed to obey laws that were pertinent to Him. However as God how many of those laws do appertain to Him?

There are two ways that Jesus fulfilled the law.

1. He brought the law to its final state. The law is now complete as far as written law goes.

2. The law has reached an end. ie. all requirements have been fulfilled for everyone on the cross. The necessity for having the law has been removed by Jesus becoming a living law in Christians.

i don't get how you bring a law to it's final state?
the law is constant...it's a standard, how can that be fulfilled?

if the law has reached an end then that means it was replaced by another standard...no fulfillment there.

now if you are talking about an ancient tradition of scapegoating...that's not fulfilling the law, that avoiding the law because someone else paid your debt.

 

[Civil Shephard]

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

Sorry if this has already been brought up but doesn't Paul say Love fulfills the law? My study of New Testament scripture has always centered on Jesus words and of course Jesus speaks of coming to fulfill the law and Paul speaks of the whole law being fulfilled by loving your neighbor as you love yourself.(Matthew 5, Romans 13, Galatian 5:14 for the specific)

But you know... I guess it's how you ask the question I mean... can anyone really love others in the same way they love themselves? As a believer in Christ teachings I sense that only with the help of Christ Holy Spirit can this be accomplished through the grace and forgiveness and honesty of someone who lets God be God.

Atanyrate... Fulfilling Jewish Law might also mean realizing that the Jewish Law was made so that all would see they are sinners and therefore all would sense their need for salvation. Enter Christ who looks at the heart and helps us see that murder can be done in the heart of anger and judgementalism. It seems to me that the law judges by eyes and ears but Christ came with righteous omni judgement that transcends our limited facaulties. (Isaiah 11)

 

[fallingblood]

What you view as disrespect, God does not. It is your sinfulness that causes you to take this perspective.

That is a cop out. If God set-up a law, there is no reason to assume that Jesus should be able to break it. God set-up the laws for human. Jesus, no matter how you really look at him, was a human. You may consider him God, in human form, or simply a human. Either way, he was a human. And thus, bound by the laws that God gave to humans (Jewish humans, but Jesus was a Jew anyway).

Meaning, Jesus was a sinner.

 

[fallingblood]

You are not talking about fulfillment you are talking about obedience. It is quite correct to say that Jesus only needed to obey laws that were pertinent to Him. However as God how many of those laws do appertain to Him?

Jesus was human. If you believe he was also God, it still stands that he was a human here on Earth. Thus, it would be contradictory of Jesus to not obey the laws, all of the law. In fact, he states that his followers must follow all of the law, even the smallest of them.

1. He brought the law to its final state. The law is now complete as far as written law goes.

Support that with scripture. Because I doubt scripture actually says that. Especially since debate and discussion about the law continued well after Jesus died. Even today, there is debate and discussion about the law.

More so though, Jesus stated very clearly that all of his followers were meant to follow all of the law.

2. The law has reached an end. ie. all requirements have been fulfilled for everyone on the cross. The necessity for having the law has been removed by Jesus becoming a living law in Christians.

That is not what Jesus stated. He stated the opposite. As in, his followers were to follow the law, even the smallest of them. That not a single letter of the law should pass until the end of this world. Well, we haven't reached the end, so the only conclusion that can be made is that Jesus did not deem that the law should have ended yet. Jesus never stated that the necessity for having the law was removed. He stated the opposite.