Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[Poisonshady313]

So do you view Jesus as some type of anti-god or Antichrist? Do you think Jesus tried to spread a anti-Judaism philosophy?

I view him as a hypocrite, a bigot, a false teacher, a false prophet... and yes, he tried to spread an anti-Judaism philosophy.... but in a clever way, trying to show people that what he was teaching was the "real" Judaism, all the while disgracing God's holy Torah.

 

[Gloone]

It most certainly can. It was clear that he didn't love many of his fellow Jews, insulting them in a most embarrassing manner... and then there was the humiliation of the canaanite woman... the disrespect he had for the elders and/or Torah scholars... this whole talk about Jesus dishonoring his mother isn't the one and only sin we can pin on Jesus. He was a rather unpleasant fellow. Far from perfect, I find it an honor to be described as being nothing like Jesus. He not only showed disrespect, but he encouraged others to do the same... like the man he denied to go and bury his dead father, that instead he should follow Jesus. What an awful man Jesus was.

It seems like you have a backwards analogy on Jesus. He never disrespected anyone. He was perfect. Jesus never sinned a day of his life. I am surprised Jewish people choose not to hold the man to a higher standard than they have in years past. About the whole let the dead bury the dead thing he was making someone an offer to go with him and preach. The guy was making excuses not to go with Jesus. A link for your misunderstanding of the bible.

The Cost of Following Jesus

57As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.”
58Jesus replied, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”
59He said to another man, “Follow me.”
But the man replied, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”
60Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
61Still another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family.”
62Jesus replied, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

Where you and others come up with this stuff about Jesus is beyond me. Jesus had a habit for leaving his family to follow god and spread the word.
You would think Jewish people would be happy to have someone like that who is enthusiastic and that committed to god.

 

[fallingblood]

It seems like you have a backwards analogy on Jesus. He never disrespected anyone. He was perfect. Jesus never sinned a day of his life. I am surprised Jewish people choose not to hold the man to a higher standard than they have in years past. About the whole let the dead bury the dead thing he was making someone an offer to go with him and preach. The guy was making excuses not to go with Jesus.


Where you and others come up with this stuff about Jesus is beyond me. Jesus had a habit for leaving his family to follow god and spread the word.
You would think Jewish people would be happy to have someone like that who is enthusiastic and that committed to god.

Wow. So your defense is Jesus is perfect. Since Jesus is perfect, he could not have sinned. Thus, there is no way he could have disrespected anyone. Is that not circular reasoning? Yes, it is.

Maybe you would want to find a way to actually defend your stance in a logical fashion.

 

[Gloone]

Wow. So your defense is Jesus is perfect. Since Jesus is perfect, he could not have sinned. Thus, there is no way he could have disrespected anyone. Is that not circular reasoning? Yes, it is.

Maybe you would want to find a way to actually defend your stance in a logical fashion.

The difference between Jesus and Judaism is that Jesus is more like a rolling stone and Judaism is family oriented. If the guy wanted to go back and be with his mom and dad he should have went. End of discussion.

 

[Poisonshady313]

It seems like you have a backwards analogy on Jesus.

First of all, what's with the word "analogy"? I used no analogy. I told you straight forward what I think.

He never disrespected anyone.

He certainly did.

He was perfect.

He certainly was not.

Jesus never sinned a day of his life.

He certainly did. We've pointed out a few already.

I am surprised Jewish people choose not to hold the man to a higher standard than they have in years past. About the whole let the dead bury the dead thing he was making someone an offer to go with him and preach. The guy was making excuses not to go with Jesus.

That's your way of looking at it... and if you ask me, it's kind of a stretch. It seems like God spent the Torah putting the family together, and Jesus spent the gospels tearing it apart.

You would think Jewish people would be happy to have someone like that who is enthusiastic and that committed to god.

If only that were the case. He went about breaking the sabbath and telling people that the dietary laws were no longer meaningful... he desecrated God's Torah... he didn't honor it... he certainly didn't fulfill it... and he certainly didn't seem all that committed to God. He seemed rather committed to himself.

 

[fallingblood]

The difference between Jesus and Judaism is that Jesus is more like a rolling stone and Judaism is family oriented. If the guy wanted to go back and be with his mom and dad he should have went. End of discussion.

So that is a your defense? Maybe he didn't want to be with his family because it was a little hard for him. Maybe Jesus should have helped him with that instead of just dragging him off.


Also, you do realize that Jesus was a Jew. He practiced Judaism.

 

[Gloone]

So that is a your defense? Maybe he didn't want to be with his family because it was a little hard for him. Maybe Jesus should have helped him with that instead of just dragging him off.


Also, you do realize that Jesus was a Jew. He practiced Judaism.

So if you aren't Jewish then you can't follow Christ? That might solve a large % of the worlds problems. It would be nice if Jewish people got it together an spread the word around. I mean I think my life has just found new meaning. I will probably go get this tattoo of a cross I have replaced with something a little more sinister first thing tomorrow. Things are looking are looking up already.

 

[james2ko]

You can take your anti-semitic preaching somewhere else, james. If you're interested in discussion or debate, this is NOT how to do it.

You took a statement of fact about how Orthodox Jews get their spiritual inspiration from the people Jesus criticized for their hypocrisy and evil deeds as anti-semitic? First of all, did you not notice Harmonious completely danced around the statement without denying it? Second, I have plenty of Jewish friends and acquaintances whom I love dearly. And third, I live near a predominantly Orthodox Jewish community and speak to them on a regular basis. So please spare me...

 

[james2ko]

This is an open forum, james, not a private conversation. Harmonious has been remarkably patient and tolerant with you--much more than me. You would benefit greatly from learning from his well-informed and extremely polite posts.

I do not doubt I can learn something from every man or woman in this forum-- I hate to admit, even from you But definitely not on this topic...

You may not like it, but the fact of the matter is, Jesus violated this commandment. I understand you have excuses and rationalizations for why you think it was o.k. for Him to do so, but that does not change the fact that He did. If you find this fact an insult, then be insulted by reality--at least, as conveyed in the gospels.

2Pe 1:17-18 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.

So you presume, but it's really not up to you, is it, to try to parse what God might have meant. God might be well pleased, despite His beloved Son having sinned, not unlike the prodigal son. It doesn't change the facts, as set forth in your scripture.

And I'll leave this thread with this: The fact of the matter is that if you cannot even correctly interpret a simple statement of fact, how in the world do you expect to correctly interpret scripture?

 

[fallingblood]

So if you aren't Jewish then you can't follow Christ? That might solve a large % of the worlds problems. It would be nice if Jewish people got it together an spread the word around. I mean I think my life has just found new meaning. I will probably go get this tattoo of a cross I have replaced with something a little more sinister first thing tomorrow. Things are looking are looking up already.

Maybe you would like to stop with the ridiculous BS.

 

[Gloone]

Maybe you would like to stop with the ridiculous BS.

No, you think I’m joking. If Jesus was Jewish and you think only Jewish people are suppose to follow Jewish law or Judaism then it would be nice to let the rest of the world that follows some type of Abrahamic religion know, since that is what they were founded on.

 

[Harmonious]

No, you think I’m joking. If Jesus was Jewish and you think only Jewish people are suppose to follow Jewish law or Judaism then it would be nice to let the rest of the world that follows some type of Abrahamic religion know, since that is what they were founded on.

You know... The Jews have been saying that for the longest time. People don't really believe us when we say so.

Only the Jews are supposed to follow Jewish law. The rest of humanity is supposed to be following the Seven Noachide Laws.

1) They are forbidden to worship idols.

2) They are forbidden to curse or otherwise disrespect God or His name.

3) They are forbidden to murder.

4) They are forbidden to rob, cheat, steal, and kidnap.

5) They are forbidden to have illicit sexual relationships: homosexual, incestual, adulterous, bestial, etc.

6) They are forbidden to tear limbs from living animals. They can eat whatever they want - just make sure it's dead first.

7) They are adjured to set up a system of laws that make sure that the other laws are being followed.

It can be a bit more complicated than that, but that is what God commanded the non-Jews of the world to accomplish.

 

[Numinous]

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

All it means is that the law was a sign pointing to something else that would come. In that sense, when Jesus came he fulfilled what he law was pointing too.
To Christians, the law is something that convicts one of their sin, it let's them know they are in trouble with God. The fact there is a law to Christians, means order was needed at some point in time. It is what a Christians or Jew was to abide by.
Jesus arrives and announces what the law couldn't do, in that it only condemned, Jesus offered something a bit further, redemption. Where the law simply existed so people could know they were guilty, Jesus offered freedom from the law.

It is this "freedom" part that ruffles feathers for most critics. One reason why is some would say why would anyone want freedom from God's law? They think Christians think the law is bad. The freedom in view though, means somethin different. It means, God condemned all with the law, but gave a new way of life through Jesus. This new life says Christians admit they are guilty of the law, but no longer serve a law that condems but serve a lord tha grants eternal life.
Hope that helped a little.

 

[Harmonious]

The reality of the matter is that each Jewish law is a multifaceted treasure. There are nuances of every matter. Family purity is a big one. It is far more intense than who may sleep with whom. I'm not going into detail here, first of all because you wouldn't appreciate it, and second of all, the details are a bit graphic. But every time a Jew appreciates and observes another facet of the law, it is worth more merit.

The laws are not a simple baseline. They are an entire way of life. If you see them only as a list of "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not", I promise you that you are missing the ENTIRE picture. If that is the image you are bringing up when you think of Torah law, it would be easy to see why a person would be anxious to "outgrow" the need for such things.

But as I said, if that is all you think of it, you have entirely missed the point of God giving the commandments to the Jews.

The difference is that no prophet after Moses was given prophecy to gainsay what God taught Moses.

Every and all prophets, from Joshua to Malachi, sought to remind the Jews of their responsibility to FOLLOW the commandments, as God gave to Moses.

I thought that parts of my original post might be useful for the new reader of the thread.

 

[Numinous]

I thought that parts of my original post might be useful for the new reader of the thread.

Thanks. I am aware of all of that. Just didn't see any sensible answer for the Christian explanation, regardless of my personal views.
You wrote very well though!

 

[Harmonious]

Thanks. I am aware of all of that. Just didn't see any sensible answer for the Christian explanation, regardless of my personal views.
You wrote very well though!

Thank you.

 

[Numinous]

In some weird way, it is all anybodies best guess. I mean we can only follow our hearts at the end of the day. If one version feels more correct, or to another rather abandoning them all, who are we to judge?

I can see how both the Jew and the Christian form their beliefs. The original thread and it's tone was suspect, much like my Jewish thread was.

It is simply mind boggling how many swimming pools there are to dive into and spend ones life.

 

[Harmonious]

In some weird way, it is all anybodies best guess. I mean we can only follow our hearts at the end of the day. If one version feels more correct, or to another rather abandoning them all, who are we to judge?

I can see how both the Jew and the Christian form their beliefs. The original thread and it's tone was suspect, much like my Jewish thread was.

It is simply mind boggling how many swimming pools there are to dive into and spend ones life.

Actually, the OP asked a question, and declared that it was answered to his satisfaction.

He asked whether Jewish law can be fulfilled, and he was answered: Jews can fulfill it on a daily basis, to the best of our ability, but no one person can fulfill the laws such that it can abrogate the obligations of Jews to fulfill our laws.

Question asked, question answered. Some people liked the answer. Others didn't.

 

[Numinous]

I suppose if it had been a thread in the Jewish section I would have caught on to that quicker. Sorry.
Obviously that is convincing position you state, if in fact one is a Jew. If the original poster only wanted Jews to answer, I missed that and apologies again.

I'll get better at this forum thing. I hope...:cover:

 

[Autodidact]

All it means is that the law was a sign pointing to something else that would come. In that sense, when Jesus came he fulfilled what he law was pointing too.

And isn't that an odd view to have of a law? Usually we consider a law to be something we're supposed to follow.

To Christians, the law is something that convicts one of their sin, it let's them know they are in trouble with God. The fact there is a law to Christians, means order was needed at some point in time. It is what a Christians or Jew was to abide by.
Jesus arrives and announces what the law couldn't do, in that it only condemned, Jesus offered something a bit further, redemption. Where the law simply existed so people could know they were guilty, Jesus offered freedom from the law.

aren't Christians still supposed to follow the law, then Jesus comes in when you screw up? It's not like a free pass, is it?

It is this "freedom" part that ruffles feathers for most critics. One reason why is some would say why would anyone want freedom from God's law? They think Christians think the law is bad. The freedom in view though, means somethin different. It means, God condemned all with the law, but gave a new way of life through Jesus. This new life says Christians admit they are guilty of the law, but no longer serve a law that condems but serve a lord tha grants eternal life.
Hope that helped a little.

I've never heard that criticism.

What I don't get is, are Christians supposed to follow God's laws, or not?